If PCGS incorrectly graded a coin TOO HIGH...

Whitewashqtr · November 5, 2002 2:23PM

do I have any recourse? I have a PCGS MS66 clad quarter that I could swear is no better than AU. I obviously paid 66 money for a key date. Can I do anything about this?

wondercoin · November 5, 2002 3:29PM

WWQ: PCGS has the guaranteed regrade program and that coin sounds like a perfect candidate.

Why don't you blow up a scan of the coin for the boards? Wondercoin

dbldie55 · November 5, 2002 4:15PM

<< <i>WWQ: PCGS has the guaranteed regrade program and that coin sounds like a perfect candidate. >>

Good Luck getting it to work! If you are the submitting party, they will do nothing other than lower the grade, otherwise they will just do nothing.

CarlWohlforth · November 5, 2002 11:23PM

PCGS has downgraded 5 out of 5 coins for me. They paid me what the coins cost. I had the coins for a few years.

NGC however thinks a deep staple scratch on each side is OK and stands by their earlier grade. I only tried them on one coin.

Now I try not to buy coins like those

Why not post a scan as Wonder suggests? And bring it to an expert grader in person if you can. If everybody agrees the coin is misgraded then try to get it downgraded.

Whitewashqtr · November 5, 2002 11:37PM

If it is downgraded, I only receive the amount that I paid for it?

CarlWohlforth · November 6, 2002 1:01AM

If it does get downgraded you should receive the difference in price between the old grade and the new grade. So if your 66 goes 65 you would get the coin back and the difference in price between a 66 and 65. If it goes AU you would get more.

If you recently bought the coin the price you paid is considered the true value of the coin. If you had the coin for years then it is harder to value the coin and you would have to agree on a fair market value.

DAM · November 6, 2002 1:32AM

Carl,

PCGS has downgraded 5 out of 5 coins for me. They paid me what the coins cost. I had the coins for a few years.

Does that work for copper coins too? What about a coin that was graded as RD or RB and no longer exhibits that color?

CarlWohlforth · November 6, 2002 1:46AM

My downgrades were obvious. They were PR 70s that had naked eye visible flaws.

I think the issue of RD vs RB is harder and more subjective. I'm still learning about grading. For example it surprised me to learn that coins with staple scratches are allowed in slabs. I've heard that both PCGS and NGC allow staple scratches. To me they are damaged coins and should be bodybagged.

I was looking at images of matte proof Lincolns. I am pretty sure I will buy one labeled RB, I have seen some images that look really nice to me.

I guess if PCGS agrees that the coin is no longer red they would live up to their guarantee. The question is will they agree the coin is no longer red?

tradedollarnut · November 6, 2002 1:47AM

Seriously, if an MS66 clad quarter is downgraded from MS66 to AU, is it even worth postage and a half hour of your time to package it up to send it in?

Save yourself some time and hassle - crack it out and spend it!

DAM · November 6, 2002 1:51AM

I've never had a problem, but seem to remember copper coins were excluded.

Maybe not.

wondercoin · November 6, 2002 2:07AM

"Save yourself some time and hassle - crack it out and spend it"

TDN: Quick funny story on clad quarters. At the last PCGS Invitational, the issue of clad MS coins came up and the "veterans" chuckled how they had no value. I believe Coingame2000 was laughing the loudest at the dinner table that evening (and I say this in a nice way - we all had fun that night). I made a proposal to the dealers at that dinner table. Before the next invitational (which was about 3 months away) I would pay $1000/coin for each and every 1983(p) Quarter they could deliver me in a PCGS-MS67 holder AND I WOULD BUY (20) MAXIMUM to make it worth their while. Easiest $20,000 they would ever make was the chat around the table. They were all going back to their offices the next day to get started on picking up the easy $20,000 from the fellow who obviously had been drinking too much Champagne that evening

We are now about 4 weeks away from that next PCGS invitational and I have yet to spend my first $1000

Wondercoin.

tradedollarnut · November 6, 2002 2:30AM

That value's for MS67 - a "controlled" grade.

It's also for your handpicked date. I have no doubt those are hard to find. And I'm not trying to denigrate clad coinage collectors. But, how many hundreds of thousands of coins in MS66 for the series? A super PQ one that looks MS67 is probably worth something - $20??. Wholesale for an average specimen - $10??

One that isn't so nice and looks AU is probably worth a quarter. Not even worth the time, postage expense and hassle to get the money from the grade guarantee. Spend it.

Edited to add:
[I didn't notice he stated "key date" in the original post. My response was directed at a common date]

shirohniichan · November 6, 2002 2:36AM

TDN, so you're saying clad quarters in PCGS AU-58 aren't a good investment?

wondercoin · November 6, 2002 2:54AM

"A super PQ one that looks MS67 is probably worth something - $20??. "

TDN: Actually, $200-$250 is closer to MS66 wholesale money on that date. A BU roll of 1983(p) quarters now bids for more money than most Wash silver quarter BU rolls going back to the early 1940's!!

I was recently outbid on ebay on a forum members' auction for a 1983(d) quarter (great date, but not as great as the 1983(p)) as well in PCGS-MS67, which realized around $1250 and surprised me. Honest dealers - I wasn't tying to "rip you off" offering "ONLY" $1000/coin for those 1983(p) MS67's

Wondercoin.

Whitewashqtr · November 6, 2002 3:12AM

Funny Mitch should mention it.. but the coin in question is 1983P MS66. I paid much more than a quarter for it, so cracking it out and spending it doesnt make sense to me.

I certainly would spend the time to send it in. as soon as I get back to my scanner, I will put it up.

Thanks for your help so far. But but to hear more.. especially once the picture goes up (probably tonight).

tradedollarnut · November 6, 2002 5:06AM

Mitch - I reiterate that my post was directed at a common date clad quarter.

He never mentioned the date - sounds like you know this particular coin!!!

DIMEMAN · November 6, 2002 5:26AM

I have to agree with TDN here. Clad coins are to be spent not collected. And to hear someone paid 10,000 for a 1972 IKE is just totally insane!!!!!!

tradedollarnut · November 6, 2002 5:38AM

I don't want to start a Modern/Classic war here - I agree that super high grade clad coinage may be scarce and valuable. And I respect the passion of collectors who collect them.

But an MS66 that looks like an AU is just pocket change. If you're going to collect condition rarities with large pops below the grade, make darn sure that the coin is super premium quality before you spend your hard earned money.

supercoin · November 6, 2002 5:39AM

Hey, there's an enlightened opinion, DIMEMAN.

Or should I say PocketChangeOfThePreviousGeneration-Man.

shirohniichan · November 6, 2002 5:43AM

If you're going to collect condition rarities with large pops below the grade, make darn sure that the coin is super premium quality before you spend your hard earned money.

Yea, verily.

That's the cool thing about collecting circulated coins. If the XF-40 you bought for $300 turns out to only be a VF-30, it's still worth $200. Paying $1,200 for a supposed MS-66 coin that turns out to be AU-58 worth 25 cents is a bit more depreciation than I care for.

I sure hope PCGS makes good on its grade guarantee!

DIMEMAN · November 6, 2002 5:55AM

OK, I'm like TDN here, I don't want to start the whole modern bashing thing. It's just that personally I can't stand any of the modern coins. I don't see how they can bring these insane prices. I think that when the few who are driving up the prices for the registry sets start selling them that the bottom will fall out. I hope I'm wrong. I don't want to see anyone loose their a$$ on anything. It's just when I think what I could buy with the 10K that someone spent on an IKE, I just loose it. That would buy a real nice 1916 SLQ or most of an 1856 FE or Gobrectch(sp) dollar or a thousand other really nice coins.

Again, I'm sorry, but that is how I feel.

supercoin · November 6, 2002 6:02AM

a real nice 1916 SLQ??

Wait, you mean you care about the condition of the coin?

Actually I wouldn't spend that $10K either. Especially considering that I could buy 5 or 6 really nice toned Ikes for the same price.

Whitewashqtr · November 6, 2002 6:07AM

HOLD ON GUYS!! All I asked was what my recourse was if I have a coin graded improperly. This really has nothing to do with modern vs. classic, does it?

Any other comments regarding the topic of my thread would be greatly appreciated. However, if you want to continue your "how could a modern coin go for that much?" thoughts on another thread, that would be more appropriate

DIMEMAN · November 6, 2002 6:09AM

Yes, I do care about condition. I was just trying to name some special coins that could be bought for 10K. But as you know that list would be endless and differ from person to person. I guess it would actually be bad if we all wanted the same coins, right?

supercoin · November 6, 2002 6:13AM

DIMEMAN, yeah, coins are expensive enough as it is!

Whitewashqtr, if it's really that bad I don't think you'll have any problem getting PCGS to remedy it. I wonder if it might just be the typical appearance for the date (Mitch would know better than me), many of them have less-than-crisp detail.

My experience downgrading coins (mostly moderns) with PCGS has also been positive.

Whitewashqtr · November 6, 2002 6:22AM

The coin looks AU, more like BU for "beat up". I think its an obvious mistake on PCGS part. I looked at it under a 10x loupe last night. I couldnt even bear to put it under the microscope.

I will put up the scan later tonight.

wondercoin · November 6, 2002 7:16AM

If you are going to conduct a conversation on modern coins, at least get the facts and figures straight please

No one is suggesting a 1983 quarter in MS66 is worth $1200 - you are confusing that price with an MS67 coin, which I will happily pay $1000 for once these verteran coin dealers stroll over to their inventory of rolls and slab a dozen or so in an afternoon's work. Frankly, I don't understand what has been taking them so long.

I already said an MS66 is around a $200-$250 coin.

But, I find interesting the notion that a coin in MS66 or MS67 doesn't make sense at $200 or $1000 when the AU is worth around face value. Let's look at that comment a bit more closely. Gee- what is a 1932(p) Washington quarter worth in AU - a couple dollars? How about the MS67? There isn't a coin dealer on this planet that could sell me that coin at $50,000 today, if they tried (pay little attention to the $10,000 price up on the CU site). So, it is OK for a "classic" 1932 quarter to jump from a couple dollars in AU to tens of thousands in finest known grade, but not OK for a clad coin to do the same thing? Anybody want to talk about the price jump on a 1919(d) Walker in AU to MS65? Talk about stupid

Seriously, there are certain clad coins that are exceedingly rare even in MS65 grade. Anyone out there want to sell me a 1969(s) Jefferson nickel in PCGS-MS65FS today for $5,000? I might even be able to go to $7,500 sight-seen today - just PM me. That nickel in AU is worth 5 cents. Is the AU price relevant? Come on

Wondercoin

tradedollarnut · November 6, 2002 7:23AM

I agree that super high grade clad coinage may be scarce and valuable. And I respect the passion of collectors who collect them. What more can I say?

If you're going to collect condition rarities with large pops below the grade, make darn sure that the coin is super premium quality before you spend your hard earned money. Nowhere do I say this is for modern coinage only - this is good advice no matter what the series!!

wondercoin · November 6, 2002 7:26AM

TDN: I was last commenting on Shiro's post on the subject and I respect what Shiro has to say.

Wondercoin

tjkillian · November 6, 2002 7:46AM

I, too, have a clad quarter (1976) that is in MS-66 that looks AU. It is in a PCGS holder. I paid $4.00 for it. Yes, I did buy the plastic, but it was for my type set and it was not too expensive. As TDN said, it is not worth it to ask for the PCGS guarantee.

Tom

Whitewashqtr · November 6, 2002 8:21AM

You're right .. for a $4.00 it s not worth it.. but the 83P MS66 is not a $4.00. Didnt you read any part of this post TJ?

lincolnSence · November 6, 2002 8:48AM

bring on the scan! I don't collect them but want to see it.

DIMEMAN · November 6, 2002 8:50AM

PLEASE don't compare the 1919-D Walker in 65 with ANYTHING mentioned in this thread. That's like saying BMW and KIA in the same sentence!!!!!

shirohniichan · November 6, 2002 8:51AM

So, it is OK for a "classic" 1932 quarter to jump from a couple dollars in AU to tens of thousands in finest known grade, but not OK for a clad coin to do the same thing?

A 1932 quarter is modern.

I agree with TDN, it doesn't matter if it's classic or modern-- if the price jump is huge you'd better be sure the coin's eye-appeal warrants the extra money you're shelling out.

wondercoin · November 6, 2002 9:03AM

IMHO, no coin conversation involving 20th century potentially "overpriced" coins is complete without at least honorable mention of such great coins as gem 1919(d) Walkers or 1926(s) Buffalos. Is a 1926(s) Buffalo Nickel in MS65 "worth" $75,000? Is a 1919(d) Walker in MS65 worth close to $100,000? Well, is it? And, if it is, who out there would prefer to own the 1926(s) Buffalo nickel in MS65 vs. a 1983(p) clad quarter in PCGS-MS67 and $74,000 cash? Tell me you would walk from the cash and clad quarter pile?

For that matter, who would take the 1932(d) quarter in MS66 at $89,000 (around last sales price) vs. a fabulous run of finest known clad quarters and say $70,000 cash left over? Someone happily chose the 1932(d) obviously at a recent auction.

There is no reason to attack the collecting habits of any one of us here.

A 1983(p) quarter fits in nicely in the same post as a 1919(d) half - as seen here. Wondercoin.

MoneyLA · November 6, 2002 9:15AM

I just want to say that Wondercoin Mitch is 100% correct about his assessment for the condition rarity and value of 1983 ms66 washingtons. I remember when I was putting together my mint state set about five years ago -- I had the hardest time finding one that was even "decent" and it certainly was NOT a ms66. If I recall there were no mint sets that year?? and I think coin collecting was at a lowpoint and no one bothered putting away rolls then??

WhiteWashingtonQtr: as others have pointed out, you can submit the coin to PCGS under their "guarantee service" and if the coin is indeed overgraded you will be offered a cash payment. Some of you on the board will recall that I submitted a pr70 washington for the guarantee service -- but this coin never made it to pcgs but led to the arrests of the postal worker at newport beach. so, I personally can't tell you what the "guarantee service" resulted in. Also, WWQ, call PCGS first because they have a special fee for the guarantee service which might also save you a few bucks.

cheers, alan mendelson

tradedollarnut · November 6, 2002 10:03AM

who out there would prefer to own the 1926(s) Buffalo nickel in MS65 vs. a 1983(p) clad quarter in PCGS-MS67 and $74,000 cash? Tell me you would walk from the cash and clad quarter pile?

I would take the nickel. I'd walk away from the quarter pile and the cash. But others may choose differently.

For that matter, who would take the 1932(d) quarter in MS66 at $89,000 (around last sales price) vs. a fabulous run of finest known clad quarters and say $70,000 cash left over?

I would take the 32-D over the run of finest known clad quarters and the cash. But others may choose differently.

The 26-S and the 32-D have decades of numismatic pizazz behind them. The clad quarters in high grades may be extraordinarily rare, but so are some civil war tokens. Neither floats my boat. Perhaps in 64 years the 1983 quarter will be accorded the same respect as the 1919-D half, but it will have to earn it.

You're right .. for a $4.00 it s not worth it.. but the 83P MS66 is not a $4.00. Didnt you read any part of this post TJ?

Whitewashqtr - some of the misunderstandings might not have occured if you'd stated what date and value the quarter was in the initial post. Some of us have no idea what constitutes a key date clad quarter and yet we might have insight on the grade review process. Your idea of key date could be $30 vs $4 and the answer would most likely be the same - spend it!

wondercoin · November 6, 2002 10:36AM

TDN: Did you also want the 1919(d) gem half at $95,000? You left that on the counter.

Wondercoin.

wondercoin · November 6, 2002 10:41AM

Newflash: While this thread has been going on this afternoon, WWQ and myself have, once again, engaged in a bidding battle on ebay for another juicy clad quarter in PCGS-MS67, which just ended with me squeeking him out for the coin (as WWQ closed in on my max bid with bid after bid falling just a couple bucks short in the end)! I enjoyed the action WWQ- I look forward to our next battle

Wondercoin

DIMEMAN · November 6, 2002 11:04AM

I'm with TDN here. I would take the Buffalo or Walker or any true classic coin over any clad. Key and clad don't belong in the same sentence either. I'm sorry but there are billions of Ikes and only a few 19-D Walkers or 26-S buffs or any of the truly rare coins. And look at the designs. There is only one coin uglier than an IKE and that is the Susan B. Agony dollar. Someone once said todays moderns are tomorrows classics. WRONG!!!!! A 100 years from now they will still be BUTT ugly. Sorry.

Whitewashqtr · November 6, 2002 1:59PM

Here are the scans!!! On the reverse, there are no breast feathers

1983-P Obverse

1983-P Reverse

shirohniichan · November 6, 2002 2:10PM

Wow, I got a coin just like that in change yesterday.

wondercoin · November 6, 2002 2:59PM

WWQ: Of course, I can not state with certainty whether the coin does not deserve the MS66 grade without considering luster and overall visual appeal, however, I could certainly possibly see the coin in a lower grade holder. The very weak strike alone might support a lower grade. The coin does appear to have very few marks, however, and perhaps this might explain PCGS' decision to grade it a bit higher as a result?

Back to TDN's point though - is it worth the trouble to pursue the regrade program at PCGS? The coin might fetch a decent % of your money back simply by selling it off on ebay or anywhere else? If you would lose under $100 let's say, you do need to caredully think if you want to invest the time and energy for that sum.

Thanks for sharing the scans.

Wondercoin

DIMEMAN · November 6, 2002 3:00PM

I hear ya shiro. That's about as good as a clad quarter can look. Crack out 3 of those and you've yourself a Pepsi, which I do like.

supercoin · November 6, 2002 3:07PM

Oh my. That almost looks like it was struck through grease, it's so bad. I thought a weak strike is supposed to preclude even an MS65 grade.

If that's actually wear, then AU would be too generous. Lovely toning to top it off.

Where'd you buy that beauty, and wasn't there a return policy?

supercoin · November 6, 2002 3:16PM

That's about as good as a clad quarter can look.

I disagree.

But if you don't like that one either, I think there's one under that Pepsi machine. Really. Keep looking. Take your time.

DAM · November 6, 2002 9:42PM

WOW!!!!

I've been reading this thread, patiently waiting to see the pictures. If that coin is anywhere close to being a mint state grade, by anyone's standards, I've got a whole bunch of MS69 and 70 coins in my pocket just waiting to be submitted to PCGS for certification.

What a shame! How many graders decide on the grade, 3?

Maybe it was "Bring your son or daughter to work day", and they let the kids take a crack at grading that day.

They didn't want to hurt little Johnny's feelings, scarring him for life, so they let it go through.

WOW!!!!

Charlie · November 7, 2002 4:07AM

Whitewashqtr,

You can send the coin back under the Guarantee Review service. If we do feel the coin does not make the grade we will reimburse you for what you paid for the coin and the review fee.

Please call, e-mail or even PM me if you have any further questions.

Charlie
800-447-8848 ext 141
Charlie@collectors.com

Whitewashqtr · November 7, 2002 11:57AM

OK.. Had a nice chat with Charlie today. PCGS will review the coin and if it is undergraded I have a few options.. 1) keep the coin (with the new grade designation in its new holder) and receive the price differential. Or get a complete refund and give the coin back. So.. I will let you guys know how it comes out.

There is a $25 fee that I pay... only if the coin stays the same grade. A chance I am willing to take!!

Thanks everyone for their posts.. even if you think my quarter is worth only a quarter!! Soon I will own the #4 clad quarter registry position and eventhough you guys think I got only $16.00 (64 coins x 25c each).. I will be laughing all the way to the bank!!

dbldie55 · November 7, 2002 12:10PM

WWQ, so you only paid $16.00 for your entire set? Why will you laughing all the way to the bank? I assume that means you can sell them for much more than you paid. Does that mean the buyer will be getting a good or bad deal? I am pretty sure that you will not be laughing at the bank of anyone on this board who thinks they are only worth $16.00, as I doubt any of them would be interested in buying the set.

Hope this coin works out for you.

Whitewashqtr · November 7, 2002 12:35PM

This series may not be for most board members.. but there is a continued interest in the clad washington set. In the summer there were only nine Registry participants.. now there are 27 sets registered. And many more who I see on the auctions, who are not registered.

Just ask Wondercoin where this set might be going.. an 83D ms67 for $1250? I do think there is enough interest. Keep in mind, coin collecting is not limited to this group (board members).

There are many prominent collectors and dealers who do not visit these boards and many sets arent even registered. But, I am looking at this long term.. so who knows. I am just happy to have completed my set. But I may be one coin short with the downgrade.

I will let everyone know how it turns out. Probably in a month or so.

Cheers!!

If PCGS incorrectly graded a coin TOO HIGH...

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