Referance Book-Breen, Overton
newcollect
Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
Any suggestions to the best and newest editions of these books to add to my library ? Thanx
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newcollect
Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
Comments
I would recommend Tompkins before Overton for the early half dollars (to 1807), but the Capped Bust will be updated over the next few years.
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
Given all of the...."excursions from reality?".....in Breen, I'd almost suggest a copy of the latest "Mega Redbook" as a more up-to-date and trustworthy reference. (It's also a heck of a lot cheaper!!)
But Breen hasn't been updated in forever.....if it ever got beyond the first issue. If you find one, chances are it's the latest.
Breen will probably never be updated. That said, it should never have been printed with all the "suppositions" in it. Books like that should be based on fact, or backed by it.
I have a copy and have enjoyed the book. I just don't know what is true or not.
Pete
We all tend to judge the things that happen based on our own place in time. When it was written, the Breen Encyclopedia was a landmark reference book. Over the years since it was published, new info has come out and many errors were found in his text. I enjoy listening to all the present-day experts who were in diapers back in the day that love to disparage the book. It is what it is. IMO, the book should be in every numismatic library - I have three copies one still original and never opened. I use his book many times weekly.
Consider the Encyclopedia a starting point. Think how much a collector will learn by verifying the truth or falsehood of the info within.
PS A serious collector should get his hands on every newer book published in his field of collecting. Breen is a general reference. As such, it is not detailed enough in any series for an advanced collector. Therefore I'll choose Overton for half dollars over Breen but I would also add Peterson's reference.
Insider, I enjoyed your post and echo your thoughts. no one really disputes that Breen's Encyclopedia has errors, but taken as a whole it contains more information than can probably be found in many Numismatic works. I would go as far as to say that his Encyclopedia probably encouraged others to compile references, his mistakes may even have helped do that.
I don't use my copy very often but when I first bought it I read and read and read: the result is that the book paid for itself many times over. it is peculiar that the amount of reliable information and the scope and breadth of the book are often ignored, while the mistakes are dwelled upon.
also, I have a new copy still in shrink wrap, stored away safely. I saw it last night when I was looking for some KoinTains that happened to be in the same box.
I love my Breen book. I use it on a regular basis. I don;t use it as my sole reference guide, but have always found it easy to use and very helpful. In 1997 it is where I got the idea to start my new coin sets.
A little off topic:
But how easy is it to FIND a new copy of Breen now-a-days? (What with some of you hoarding shrink-wrapped copies, and all).
I rather doubt they are still printing them....
Tompkins book on the pre-turban bust halves is unparalleled. I can't say enough good things about it. For now, the Overton book will have to do for the capped bust halves. I have Peterson's book but I mostly use a master collection of highly detailed die marriage images for attributing.
I too have Breen's encyclopedia and every time I reference it I am thunderstruck by its depth.
Lance.
I bought mine over several the years. Price kept going up. Last purchase was on Ebay or Amazon...I forgot which.
If you are going to use it rather than invest (?) LOL, you can get a used copy for a lot less. I believe $110 was the most I every had to pay. It's not like everyone wants a copy so just watch Ebay. You have aroused my curiosity - I'm going to look.
Well they are still running episodes of the various Cosby shows all over the TV , that is more offensive because its visual and its tough to watch without speculating if any of his victims are in the episode
There are several on Ebay from $60 to less than $160.
It is not realistic to expect that Breen's Encyclopedia would stand toe-to-toe with the collective knowledge of the entire numismatic research community 30 years after he wrote the book. Research doesn't work that way. You do your best and publish what you have, and future scholars can build on that. Breen has lots of faults but is still a monster work that sets the bar. When you add in that he did it without the Internet you get some idea of the man's intellect.
I purchased my shrink wrapped copy around 2006 at a coin show for $80, so just keep looking and you'll find one.
I do not have a Breen's Encyclopedia... have considered it and should pull the trigger... OK..must amble over to ebay....
Cheers, RickO
Len, We'll have to disagree on that one. The issue with Breen is his rampant speculation combined with his unfortunate reliance on his supposed "photographic memory." As one wag put it, "After 350 acid trips, the data gets sorta scrambled." And as JJF once said in an ANA speech, "Walter often wrote what he thought and set about finding the proof later." I amended that to: "Walter often wrote what he thought and RARELY set about finding the proof later." (I did get a dirty look for that one.)
Thus, his work is littered with misquotes of Mint records, "quotes" of documents that never existed, and misattribution of documents (the one that comes to mind immediately is his misattribution of Patterson's Nov. 1836 letter on collars on the new half dollar to Samuel More in 1839. I believe that's in the dime or half dime section.)
In thirty years of research, Breen led me on so many wild goose chases I no longer pay any attention to his writings. As I recently said to a fellow researcher, "If Breen wrote that S-mint dimes were struck in 1949, I would check with a more reliable source."
At least 50% of the stuff I've checked in his "Big Black Door Stop" (my name given it's primary utility) have proven false. And therein lies the problem. Unless you are willing to check everything, you cannot believe what he has written.
and it continues, so sad.
A further problem with depending on Breen's Encyc., is that for many things, one has to already know a lot to pick out the bologna and gems. As Rittenhouse notes, persistent failure to document sources and check quotations now requires users to become "experts" rather than depending on "Breen the Expert" for basic guidance.
As Len noted, time does not stand still and what we write today is not immutable.
Just like you have to be a mathematician to know when the math is wrong, or an accountant to know when someone is cooking the books.....I think we have to listen to the researchers to know when the research is questionable.
I have a copy of Breen, and use it when the rest of my (anemic) library isn't of any help. But I'll trust the guys above this post, and understand that I shouldn't be making any bets on what I read....
@Rittenhouse
Would you agree that the book is a wonderful "read" even if much of it is fiction?
Now, you seem to be a very knowledgeable and respected member here. I should like to read some of the books you have written. This is not a joke. Could you recommend the titles you regard as your best research? Thanks in advance.
CS may be too modest to list all of his accomplishments, I will list the tip of the iceberg for the benefit of all who want to read these articles, as they are now available on the Newman Numismatic Portal if older than 2 years. Four of the following John Reich Journal articles won the Jules Reiver Award for the best article of the year. He has also written many other groundbreaking original research articles in Penny-Wise and other publications available courtesy of the Newman Numismatic Portal.
April 2003 Early U.S. Minting Methods - Part I: Die Forging and Hardening July 2003 Early U.S. Minting Methods - Part II: Die Sinking January 2004 Early U.S. Minting Methods - Part III: The Presses and Striking December 2015 The Evolution of U.S. Minting Technology: The Rush & Muhlenberg Screw Press December 2016 Pitting Corrosion, Hydrogen Embrittlement, and Residual Stress CrackingI suppose he could have spent the equivalent time for his dozens of articles on writing a large general book, filling in missing pieces with unfounded speculation, but that is not his style. All of his articles are original research from archival sources, fully documented.
For the OP question:
Overton 5th edition is a very good reference for 1794-1836 half dollars.
Steve Tompkins Early United States Half Dollars is excellent, and should be read by anyone interested in the early US Mint.
For a single general reference on US coins, the A Guide Book of United States Coins [the Redbook] is the most accurate.
As part of the research for the book on 1792 coinage I picked apart Breen's chapter on this subject pretty well. I was really impressed with how many sources he packed into this chapter. Yes, there are mistakes, but you ignore the source material at your own peril.......the secret with Breen is to adapt what can be fact-checked, and to discard the rest.
A wise man once told me, "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you read."
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
Thank you! I cannot wait to see who CS is as the articles look terrific. I cannot think of anyone with those initials (there is a Charles Surasky listed in an '86 Redbook that I never heard of) and regret not reading any of the articles you have provided. Off to the portal.
Search at Newman Numismatic Portal reveals CS = Craig Sholley
https://archive.org/details/johnreichjournal15n2john
Regarding the general topic of accuracy of Breen's Encyclopedia
So it's not perfect, but it was a big contribution to numismatic research at the time, and is still useful as a starting point to a series where you don't have access to current references.
Yea! Looks like I have a lot of interesting reading ahead. I have heard of both CS and you Ken but don't recall meeting either of you. Thanks again!
The question of Breen’s accuracy arises from to time. Many writers claim that
Breen is filled with errors. The above comment from Rittenhouse is perhaps
typical of the latter view:
Thus, his work is littered with misquotes of Mint records, "quotes" of
documents that never existed, and misattribution of documents ...
It seems to me that one way of resolving this dispute is to list errors by Breen.
Rittenhouse claims that Breen’s encyclopedia is “littered” with quotes from
non-existent documents, a statement that implies a large number. I am sure
that Rittenhouse will be happy to post, say, a half dozen or more instances
where Breen quotes from documents that do not exist.