1917 Lincoln cent with interesting obverse rims -- any one ever seen one like this before?
BUFFNIXX
Posts: 2,719 ✭✭✭✭✭
Take a look at this 1917 Lincoln cent, I would call it matte proof-like. Look at this obverse rims. Has anyone ever seen one like this before?
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
1
Comments
That type of rim occurs when encapsulated.
Yes.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
Now that looks like a matte proof. Do you have an image of the reverse?
Lots of early dates in the teens have these wide, flat, PL rims and it is not because they are encapsulated...LOL. Many like this are probably slabbed because they are so nice.
That 1920 with the wide rims is a real show stopper. I have seen that on a 1921p too.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Of course a 1920 MP is not possible. Some 1917 business strikes have been alleged to be proofs.
Just an idle thought. I have read that cent collars were drilled to 0.747 inch diameter and used until they had eroded out to 0.753 inch. The image of the cent being (theoretically) constant, a coin struck in a late state collar might show slightly wider rims.
1909 thru 1916.
As I said-some 1917 business strikes have been alleged to be proofs. Proof coinage for collectors ended in 1916. When proof coinage resumed in 1936 some satin proof cents and nickels were made, similar in appearance to but entirely separate from the matte proofs.
I've noticed that a decent amount of 1916 Lincoln business strikes have that look also.
Pete
That 1920 cent has amazing rims.... have not seen one to match that....Cheers, RickO
Do you have a reverse picture of the 1920?
Both pcgs and ngc have no interest in slabbing any 1917 proof coinage. A set was sold in 1976 by New England Rare Coin Galleries at their “Public II” Sale. (This set was missing the 1917 Mercury dime).
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
IMO, some 1917 Proof (or as TPGS call everything that looks special - "specimens") Lincolns and Buffalos exist.
Don't know the procedure.
1936, there were both satin and brilliant finish Proofs.
Collector, occasional seller
Not a true statement by Inslider2
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@BUFFNIXX
I don't care what you think you know or what you have written.
Note: I said IMO. To me that means I "BELIEVE" some exist. They have been described in the literature (possibly before your time). I have examined two of each (both 1917 1c and 1917 5c) on different occasions when my opinion was requested. Over the ensuing decades additional research may turn up. I believe it is extremely pompous, and silly to claim to be a know-it-all on a murky subject such as these coins. That's why I only stated it was "MY OPINION."
BTW The 1917 Proof Lincoln was struck using different dies then the coin in the OP.
(TPGS call everything that looks special - "specimens")
I was warned about Inslider2 by another board member before I even ran into him here. From now on I will not participate in a thread that he is involved in. I am outta here!!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Before I fade away into the fog I am including pix of the 1917 matte proof Lincoln cent that resides in Hawaii.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
So let's see. A member calls me out for saying that IMO 1917 proofs exist. He says that statement is not true. I don't agree. Then he posts a photo of a Proof 1917 cent? What gives? I guess what I believed may be true.
As far as being warned about me...What the heck does that mean? I feel very lucky to be able to post on this sight to learn from others and perhaps to inform others with my opinions. I enjoy a good discussion BUT pushing a "disagree button" or stating what I post is untrue WITHOUT backing up that opinion helps no one here!
Chill. I know Insider 2 personally, and I respect his opinion. I happen to disagree with him in this particular case, but know that he has seen a lot of coins, and that he may have seen something that I have not seen that would prove that he is right and I am wrong.
TD
I KNOW I SAID I WOULD NOT POST HERE ANY MORE BUT I MADE A MISTAKE THAT I HAVE TO CORRECT NOW.
I WAS REFERREING TO THE UNWARRENTED COMMENTS BY INSLIDER2 INSIDE OF THE PARENTHESIS REFERRING TO MY CALLING EVERYTHING THAT LOOKS SPECIAL A “SPECIMEN” AND NOT TO WHATS SAID OUTSIDE OF THE PARENTHESIS
ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF 1917 PROOF LINCOLN AND BUFFALOES. I CONCUR WITH HIM ON WHAT IS OUTSIDE THE
PARENTHESES.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
The bottom line concerning the existence of 1917 MPL's is "What are they worth?" The reality is that unless and until PCGS and/or NGC certify an example as being a legitimate 1917 MPL the hobby (in general) will not value the coin as a rare specimen. Of course, that is JMHO.
A very interesting topic that pops up every so often.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
The smartest day of my life was the day I figured out that I do not know everything, and never will. These extraordinary 1917 pieces may have been made special by a Mint employee such as John Sinnock, who we know made special strikes of many different issues while he was at the Mint. Some day we may all agree that they are Proofs, or that they are not, or we may just continue to agree to disagree. And Life will go on.
@BUFFNIXX said: "I WAS REFERREING TO THE UNWARRENTED COMMENTS BY INSLIDER2 INSIDE OF THE PARENTHESIS REFERRING TO MY CALLING EVERYTHING THAT LOOKS SPECIAL A “SPECIMEN” AND NOT TO WHATS SAID OUTSIDE OF THE PARENTHESIS."
Note: My statement inside the parenthesis refers to what some TPGS's have done in the past. Unless this member is working for a TPGS as a grader/authenticator, MY COMMENT HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING HE HAS POSTED HERE. I have written to Buff and urged him to keep sharing his knowledge with me!
My apologies to Insider2. When he used the term TPGS he meant third party grading services I thought he was referring to me. Why I don’t know. So I humbly apologies to him for this. As to the existence of 1917 matte proof coinage they do exist!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
All's well that ends well and Buff's a gentleman & scholar in my book!
Thank you, gentlemen.
Now let's get back to the wide rims. Is there any chance of getting a very precise diameter of either that 1917 or that 1920?
Gentlemen, Indeed Thank You...lets figure this out if we can...we need to...I want to for sure. Or the Numismatic community can continue to argue over this for another 80 years.....
My name is David...Tulsa Ok....I am brand new to this Forum, any forum for that matter. I have been learning and researching THIS subject specifically, since 2007. I have never ever studied Numismatics until then. I joined this forum to continue to learn and try to find more answers on this subject, I have read many many contentious blogs from web searches trying to find knowledge concerning this very tumultuous year(s) at the US Mint, multiple DM's in a very short time, chief engraver changes, brand new designs, WW1 and on and on.
I told myself I was not going to participate in any of these heated discussions, among the Best of the Best that are on this forum, I have contacted many of you thru the years trying to present my coin, I only want to present my "Recent" findings that are very curious and unknown I believe, and could possibly direct us to the answers for the "Cent" 1917.
"Insider2" I am very interested in your comment of different dies used, what is your knowledge ??
"CaptHenway" the "collar" topic is a huge technical curiosity for me, is there a possibility of experimental type collars to create a purposeful different appearance to the finished product, is it possible the "Artists" particularly Brenner despised the square flattened rims, and preferred a gentle rounded affect ??....Medallic Art like if you will. A slight conical shaped collar with a lesser height would achieve that it seems, and a different pressure applied during striking ??
I must make a mention of "seymourwampum.com"....the website has been recently re - done and updated, I am sure many have reviewed this in past years, but I encourage all to go and review the findings put forth here, surrounding THIS topic.
Pictures of all "Treasury Documents" found at National Archives have been put forth, the location where they can be found etc... if one wants to review them first hand in person. In short.....the documentation states that all "Proof" coinage was to cease in October 1916, but further on.... the DM corresponded that that all further special striking's be directed directly to the DM himself as the "Special Lot" and not reported on the coiners record. Hermon MacNeil requested 2 complete sets in correspondence and paid for them in advance per the documentation within the Mint.
My coin comes to my hand thru my Grandmother, 1907 - D. 1982. Coin Discovered by me in a Whitman book in 2007, with no "Numismatic" knowledge on my part. I have come to find out thru my Uncle(s) that she was heavily involved in coins all of her life, starting at a very young age, thru her Father.
I would like to first apologize for my pictures that I would like to share here, I'm struggling for accuracy with my point and shoot. Some of the poor quality actually seemed to reveal some things that I wasn't seeing.
My Suppositions / Hypothesis for what the item has on its surface are this:
Crescent Die chip reverse from 1909 - With Effaced VDB - Brenner - VD Brenner and singular B experimental placements on the Obverse - VDB on shoulder location as known to this present day. Subtle vestiges but present.
Over dated 1909 / 1917 with a fatter (experimental) Zero underneath or a filled and polished thru standard 0 that is correct for 1909. North and South experimental date placements seem present, with a Hub or Die doubling seen at standard date location. Different from known DDO for 1917.
Satin / Matted appearance on both sides, face of rims seem sandblasted and granular as if it was hand sandblasted after striking as described by James Rankin Young.
Inner rims at field are sharp - corners fall short of perfection for known (standard) diagnostic. coin unfortunately has not been perfectly preserved for Numismatic posterity, or has seen a short circulation period, IMHO.
Planchet has a very slight arc.
Known 1909 VDB Proof diagnostics and over date all seem present, subdued and polished thru.... but present.
All of the events during the early inception of the Lincoln Cent of Brenner's name and / or initials during the original
Pattern striking's time frame seem "modeled" on the dies that struck this coin. A " Master Die" ??? or from one of the original hubs from Medallic Art Co. ??? unused by Charles Barber during cut down and centering ???
Was V.D. Brenner given carte blanche by Morgan in 1917 to restore his artistic recognition to his work ??
And he chose the original die sets or hubs to model VDB for 1918 ??
Thank you all..... for any and all input and knowledge... to this discussion....
I have securely tied myself to the Whipping Post and expect to be lambasted, so let the beatings begin...Aarghh
Files attached...
I am just looking for answers and hope to contribute to this mysterious dark corner of the year 1917, a hundred years
later.
Mr. Rosco
R.I.P Son 1986>2020
@Rosco asked: "Insider2" I am very interested in your comment of different dies used, what is your knowledge?"
I saw at least one and perhaps two (cannot remember - LOL) of these coins. One 1917 "Proof" cent had several strong, long polish lines from the back of Lincoln's shoulder diagonally up into the matte field. Anyone familiar with the typically strong die polish on matte proof Lincolns should be able to imagine what they look like. Unfortunately, no image in my possession.
I do not think your coin is a proof. I suggest you send the coin to a TPGS anyway. David Lange at NGC wrote a book on Lincolns. Write a note to him to make sure he sees it. I don't know who you can "tag" if you send the coin to PCGS. The guys at ANACS and ICG are also suitable. From what I read, it will cost less and be returned faster at either of these services and they are more likely to slab it as a Proof if they think it is.
Insider2 - do either one of these pictures resemble what you mentioned for polish lines / scratches ?
I am left to think it is a "Testing / Trial" strike of the dies as they were being prepared and cleaned up, to strike actual Proof coins once they were cleaned up with no remaining vestiges from previous modeling by the artist / engraver.
R.I.P Son 1986>2020
AFAIK the proof dies are fresh and need no cleaning. Roger may be able to tell us if several Proofs were struck and discarded to check the press settings. As I wrote, your coin does not appear to have the sharpness of a proof. Perhaps a family member cleaned it.
My records show diagonal polish from the "L" down, three lines from the coat through the "ER" to the rim, one similar up through the "Y" and two shorter lines at the neck and head. The reverse has the same diagnostic polish found on 1909 Proofs. I have no record of the "crescent."
This cent is currently for sale in eBay auction number 122487664361 for anyone who wants to take a look. I believe that this coin was special made, maybe in the medal room or department. The obverse die sure is special with the unusual wide rims, the reverse maybe not so special. If you had a complete set of mattes from 1909 to 1916 this piece would make a great filler for the 1917. Starting bid is $1750.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
I just made a comment about gsc pics in @BUFFNIXX other thread about the '37 proof Buffalo. Did not realize it was a checkbox, if it is I'm pretty sure it is enabled by default. I've never had to do that on my auctions(not that I've run that many) and they were all zoom-able.
Collector, occasional seller
Well Rosco, since we are getting into this 1917 proof controversy I may as well throw another log on the fire here. In 1990 Walter Breen published his immense “100 pound” Encyclopedia of United States Coins” which was published by Bowers and Merena Galleries. One thing I learned from the section on Buffalo Nickels was that some of the 1917 matte proof nickels that he had examined had a prominent die break from the rim down past the L in LIBERTY and into the field. And I looked for that die break for over 26 years when I ran into one in an eBay auction in the summer of last year. I won the auction for I think about $176. Above are some pictures of it. A close examination and I was certain it was a matte proof. The edges were squared and the “3rd side” was fully brilliant as you would expect on a proof coin. I sent it to SEGS and it became only the third matte proof 1917 buffalo nickel that they had ever graded! (One of the other two 1917 matte proof buffs is in the seymour wampum website mentioned above. (It is graded PF-58)).
All the nay-sayers who oppose the existence of any 1917 proof strikings would be dumbfounded by the appearance of the brilliant rims. As the late Walter Breen would say “This coin carries its own credentials”. One thing that I don’t like is the fact that the rims are now covered up in the slab!!
Over the years I looked and looked for that die break and as it turned out that die was only used to strike a few proofs,
no business strikes apparently. It is graded and encapsulated now as matte proof PR-63.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
@BUFFNIXX
SCORE! That is the 1917 Proof 5c die I referred to above: "@Insider2 said: IMO, some 1917 Proof (or as TPGS call everything that looks special - "specimens") Lincolns and Buffalos exist."
The one I examined had a small die break in the hair braid that I don't see on yours. I do see the die polish on the Buffalo's belly next to the rear leg. Also, the position of the rim fins on both sides are an identical match for my records and are not complete.
What TPGS slabbed your coin?
SEGS slabbed this one. I will photograph it and post soon. To my knowledge they have slabbed at least 3 1917 matte proof buffalo nickels. Of course none at pcgs or ngc.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
"I have securely tied myself to the Whipping Post and expect to be lambasted, so let the beatings begin...Aarghh”
David --
After looking at all your pics and reading your detailed comments I do think this is a special or test striking. Because of the somewhat rounded rims it would not have any chance of being called a matte proof by pcgs or ngc. I do not think it is a stretch to call it matte proof-like but the TPGS do not used that qualifier for any teener p-mint Lincolns that may have been made from discarded or left over matte proof die(s). Is it your ultimate desire to get this into a pcgs or ngc holder. That is my first question and worth repeating. Do you want to get this into a pcgs or ngc holder?
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
One thing I forgot to mention about the 1917 buff pictured above is that Breen mentioned that there was obvious evidence of double striking on the date and that the designer’s initial was doubled. This can be seen from the image provided before and shown again below
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Could have been a perfectly aligned double strike, as unlikely as that sounds. I imagine that would produce a very impressively struck coin.
Collector, occasional seller
BUFFNIXX - 26 years of searching - Congratulations are very much in order - 3 to 4 more are out there somewhere in the shadows, they say. Larry Briggs and those specialists who probably reviewed your coin, made an accurate judgment, IMHO.
Yes...obviously the corners fall short...unfortunately.... circulation, someone's lucky penny and handled to much, or just the way it was struck and all of the above.
It does certainly seem to have certain merits and diagnostics that are very close to Proof, Special strike and or Press set up
in the Medal room, IMO.
The 1909 crescent die chip reverse diagnostic being present, VDB vestiges on the shoulder, and a possible 1909 / 1917 over date seems very very out of the ordinary to me, since all dies were all destroyed?? original dies being used 8 years after inception ??... I can't speak to that... but its on the coin.
Hypothetically...If it is a medal room press set up coin, doesn't that give validity to Proof cent striking's ?
The shoulder is the deepest part of the die on Lincolns correct ?... isn't that where you would test pressure ?
What is the apparent purposeful dark line on the shoulder of this coin ?... I do not know...is it a visual method of testing pressure applied after a strike ??
I would be very elated if this item was in a PCGS holder with correct acknowledgement.
R.I.P Son 1986>2020
Rosco -- rims are really impressive on the above shots. But, it is a very “complicated” coin! Knowing PCGS I do not know what they would put on the coin if anything. I am being brutally Frank, I dunno, but if if you want it it a pcgs holder then you have to “throw the book at them” meaning have all of your diagnostics articulated in a letter that would start out with the following salutaton -- "To whom it may concern". And then specify all of the characteristics of the coin after this greeting. Walter Breen used this format and it worked beautifully. To me the side shot of the coins “3rd” side directly above is very
strong indication that this is indeed a special coin.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
To all.
Here are pictures of the 1917 matte proof nickel slabbed PR-63 by SEGS as shown above before slabbing.
below PR-63 it says MIRROR RIMS/WIRE EDGE
CRACK RIM/“L”-LIB/FIELD
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"