1859-S Seated Liberty Dollar w/ Chopmark....Is it better or is it worse?

JGnumismatics · May 2, 2017 5:23AM

Hey guys,
Thought I'd open up an interesting thread. Recently, one of my customers/vest pocket dealers bought a 1859-S Seated Liberty Dollar raw with one chopmark on obverse side.We were unsure of what PCGS would do, so simply we sent it through the rigors at Central States for on-site grading. The coin came back as Genuine with VF-Details Chopmark. I had asked a few trusted dealers and none appeared to really know whether it was better or worse. Some solid points made were that it was very interesting considering it was on a seated dollar not a trade, and that it was a key date with the chop....many dealers could not remember seeing a seated dollar chopped. On the other end of the spectrum, one dealer suggested it may be negative as chopmark collectors typically seek trade dollars. An interesting thought I had was that based off PCGS coinfacts suggestion that just about or the entire mintage of 59-S Dollars was sent to the Orient, then why aren't more chopped?

Anyways, the customer and I still have the coin in our possession and I'm intrigued to gather more info about it. Any questions, comments, criticisms are all strongly encouraged. I looked through the Heritage archives and could not find a matching example, but only seated half dollars with chops.

Jake

TennesseeDave · May 2, 2017 5:44AM

I think it would lower its value some because collectors of Seated Dollars are not likely to be looking for a chop marked coin. But you would probably have several interested in it for the chop mark, but at a discounted price to an unchopped coin. I like it myself. Interesting piece for sure.

Meltdown · May 2, 2017 5:49AM

I agree with Dave. I think it's neat as heck and would love to put it in my type set album as a unique piece!

oih82w8 · May 2, 2017 6:11AM

That is an older holder, back when PCGS gave details for any chopmarks. I believe that it may straight grade now, unless there is some other form of cleaning or irregularity which would warrant "details".

CaptHenway · May 2, 2017 7:10AM

Here is a recent thread you may find interesting.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11684520#Comment_11684520

basetsb · May 2, 2017 7:29AM

@boyernumismatics

morgandollar1878 · May 2, 2017 7:47AM

I would think that it would sell for a premium to a chop mark collector since seated dollars are seldom seen with chops. Most others would probably avoid it all together or only buy it at a nice discount.

JGnumismatics · May 2, 2017 8:07AM

@CaptHenway said:
Here is a recent thread you may find interesting.

Havnt frequented the boards as much lately otherwise I don't know how I would of missed that thread. Very informative, thanks for that

Insider2 · May 2, 2017 8:41AM

The coin is circulated and stained. The chop makes it neat. Without it, the coin is blah to me even though it is valuable.

JBK · May 2, 2017 8:44AM

I have a different issue – I am a bit skeptical of any chopmark. I collect counterstamped coins, and I see chopmarks as the Chinese equivalent of individual letter punches on US coins, for example. That might not be an entirely fair comparison since the Chinese characters represent more than just one letter, but the point is, with just one character stamped (or multiple characters with individual punches) how can you be sure it was not done yesterday?

Old punches are undoubtedly still around and new ones are being made for legitimate purposes all the time and could easily be added to an old coin. To the best of my knowledge, most people who collect chopmarked coins do not have the chop translated or authenticated against anything.

I love chopmarked coins for their history (assuming they are authentic) and I think I even have a heavily chopped 8 reales somewhere in the accumulation, but I hesitate to assign any significant value to a chopmarked coin for the reasons stated. I wonder if anyone else has the same reservations….

Insider2 · May 2, 2017 11:07AM

Well, the old standby...EXPERIENCE helps but it is never infallible.
In the case of this coin, if the chop was an added alteration, it was done a very, very, very long time ago. Well before the chop would have added any value as the coin would have been a "cull."

I use a stereo microscope to examine any chop. They are a fascinating subject. I believe a book on them is due out soon. You can get a step-up by looking at the "modern" chops applied to counterfeit Trade $ and Mexican Cap & Rays coins.

Unknown · May 2, 2017 11:16AM

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Insider2 · May 2, 2017 11:32AM

What's a tags?

CaptHenway · May 2, 2017 11:44AM

Notice how the vertical shield lines on the reverse, which were elevated in relief when the obverse was indented by the chop mark, wore down in circulation after the mark was made. Because of this I am satisfied that the mark is contemporary.
TD

Unknown · May 2, 2017 11:58AM

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MilkmanDan · May 2, 2017 12:50PM

Neat coin. No one can really say for certain whether the chop is legit, but I don't see anything that screams fake. The placement and number of chops is quite similar to many of the chopmarked half dollars of the time with one, central chopmark.

I've found these chopmarked seated dollars to be pretty scarce, but now two of them pop up on the forum within a matter of weeks. Go figure!

Insider2 · May 2, 2017 1:02PM

In a year, these former rejects that have become very popular will come out of the woodwork.

MilkmanDan · May 2, 2017 1:21PM

@Insider2 said:
In a year, these former rejects that have become very popular will come out of the woodwork.

Curious if you're stating the general concept of popularity bringing coins out in the open, or something else going on within the year?

Insider2 · May 2, 2017 1:36PM

I wrote that I heard there is a book coming out on chops. When - ?.

Sorry, no crystal ball. I'm one of those numismatists who never cared that chops are rarely found on some US coin types. Now I'm getting REAL interested. As more and more people post on/collect chops, the prices will rise. That brings fresh stuff on to the market. That will also possibly bring a bunch of alterations out too.

MilkmanDan · May 2, 2017 2:16PM

The Chopmark book was released last year, tough to say if it's generated a noticeable up-tick in interest in the chopmarked space. It's a great reference and upgrade from Rose's original book on the subject. I recommend it to anyone interested in Chinese Chopmarks on coins.

Insider2 · May 2, 2017 2:25PM

Title?

TLeverage · May 2, 2017 3:15PM

@Insider2 said:
Title?

'Chopmarked Coins - A History' by Colin James Gullberg, published by iAsure Group.

TLeverage · May 2, 2017 3:22PM

@TLeverage said:

'Chopmarked Coins - A History' by Colin James Gullberg, published by iAsure Group.

The same book contains an example of a chopmarked Seated Liberty Dollar (dated 1849), and the other major publication focusing on chopmarks, 'Chopmarks' by F.M. Rose, details an image of an 1842-dated piece. Both display far greater numbers of individual chops than the piece in this thread (>20), though examples of chopped coins with only a single mark are far from uncommon.

Insider2 · May 2, 2017 4:00PM

I thought a book was coming out with lots of photos of chops and who made them.

TLeverage · May 2, 2017 4:14PM

I have not heard of such a project, it would be a massive scholarly undertaking to catalogue and trace the hundreds to thousands of chops known to exist. The Gullberg book does include information and illustrations from a Chinese shroff handbook of the period that was discovered in recent years, but its purpose was largely the identification of coinage by design for the purposes of fineness and other physical specifications for Chinese merchants, as well as counterfeiting techniques of the day. Colin also runs the Chopmark Collectors' Club newsletter and magazine, and as coins are featured in that publication they are categorized and added to his own database, but to my knowledge he has not published this information or made it searchable beyond looking through the back issues of the publication.

DDR · May 2, 2017 5:45PM

Coin looks fine to me.

I've always wondered why Seated Liberty Half Dollars, and of course Trade Dollars, can be found chopmarked, but not Seated Liberty Dollars.

I recommend the Gullburg book if you are at all interested in these sorts of things.

amwldcoin · May 3, 2017 5:33AM

Personally I think the chopmark reduces the value because it is a better date. If it was a common date I would say the value would be par to maybe a modest premium.

EVillageProwler · May 3, 2017 1:49PM

@amwldcoin said:
Personally I think the chopmark reduces the value because it is a better date. If it was a common date I would say the value would be par to maybe a modest premium.

As a chopmarked Seated Dollar, it is a common date. Prior to the coining of the Trade Dollars, the US bullion shipments were done nearly exclusively by S-mint coins: Seated Halves and Seated Dollars. That leaves the 59-S and 72-S as the only Seated Dollar candidates. That also explains why the S-mint Seated Halves are more likely to be found with chops than their dollars counterparts.

tradedollarnut · May 3, 2017 6:04PM

FYI - I offered $2k on the coin (bid in vf $1200) and it sold for more ....so the answer is definitely BETTER

MilkmanDan · May 3, 2017 7:59PM

Colin Gullburg (as stated above he wrote the recent book on Chopmarked Coins and also edits the Chopmark Collectors Club newsletter) wrote in his book that he only knows of two chopmarked seated dollars, but that Rose (the original chopmark collector) stated that there are more. Now we've seen a couple more pop up on the forum recently. But they are still pretty rare. Even though collectors of chopmark coins are few and far between, there are more of us than there are chopped seated dollars so yes, this coin is better than a non-chopped example of the same grade.

It's a big mystery why there aren't more with chopmarks, because many thousands were shipped overseas. The common theory is that they were melted in large quantities.

JBK · May 4, 2017 12:31AM

I have a feeling that when chopped are consistently worth more than unchopped, a lot more will appear.....

amwldcoin · May 4, 2017 4:39AM

That is interesting information about the chopmarks. I know there are several Barber Half errors I wouldn't mind owning but they always seem to be the better dates!

ricko · May 4, 2017 4:41AM

I have Rose's book on chopmarks... guess I better add the Gullburg book as well.... Cheers, RickO

JGnumismatics · May 4, 2017 6:14AM

Thanks guys for all the information and insights. My customer and I did find our answer, and at least to the 5-10 inquiries we received, the coin is most certainly better than a straight graded one price wise. Coin is off to a new home that will appreciate it more than we did, and I am now much more informed on chopped coins and interest in non Trade Dollar chops. Initially the original post was for information and see what else could be gathered.

Thanks to all
Jake

oih82w8 · May 4, 2017 6:19AM

I would still inquire about it being "regarded" with the chop mark. Earlier pieces were identified as "details" coins with chop marks previously...now are being straight graded. JMO.

MilkmanDan · May 4, 2017 6:42AM

@oih82w8 said:
I would still inquire about it being "regarded" with the chop mark. Earlier pieces were identified as "details" coins with chop marks previously...now are being straight graded. JMO.

Although I wish this was true, only US Trade Dollars are given grades by PCGS when chop marked. All others get details only.

coinhack · May 4, 2017 9:46AM

@OriginalDan said:

@oih82w8 said:
I would still inquire about it being "regarded" with the chop mark. Earlier pieces were identified as "details" coins with chop marks previously...now are being straight graded. JMO.

Although I wish this was true, only US Trade Dollars are given grades by PCGS when chop marked. All others get details only.

There are other alternatives.

MilkmanDan · May 4, 2017 10:40AM

@coinhack said:

There are other alternatives.

Such as?

EVillageProwler · May 4, 2017 2:43PM

@OriginalDan said:

@coinhack said:

There are other alternatives.

Such as?

Who cares? The coins are worth what they are worth, regardless of some paper insert. If it's a nice coin, and interesting, it will garner interest. If not (for the grade, or otherwise), then so be it.

The OP coin is a thoroughly wholesome coin. Congrats to its new owner.

USMarine6 · May 4, 2017 2:50PM

@OriginalDan said:

@oih82w8 said:
I would still inquire about it being "regarded" with the chop mark. Earlier pieces were identified as "details" coins with chop marks previously...now are being straight graded. JMO.

Although I wish this was true, only US Trade Dollars are given grades by PCGS when chop marked. All others get details only.

Who knows maybe that will change someday

coinhack · May 4, 2017 5:29PM

@OriginalDan said:

@coinhack said:

There are other alternatives.

Such as?

If the new owner likes the coin but does not like it being in a "Genuine" holder without a grade and PCGS is not doing that at this time, I believe there are TPG who will. No?

Just a thought since some collector's do not like a coin in a G holder as they see it as having been shunned, as it were.

Insider2 · May 10, 2017 8:27AM

@OriginalDan said:

@coinhack said:

There are other alternatives.

Such as?

AFAIK both ANACS and ICG will put numerical grades on problem coins. None of the TPGS put MS numerical grades on problem coins.

1859-S Seated Liberty Dollar w/ Chopmark....Is it better or is it worse?

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