Disappointing determination from ATS
Weiss
Posts: 9,942 ✭✭✭✭✭
Sent a 10-piece gold submission ATS. Mostly $20s and I did well with them, including a 1928 Saint I figured for a 63 that's coming home a 65, a 1928 $2.5 I estimated a conservative 45 that made a 61 (bank error in your favor, right?), and my first real crack-out: An 1894 ICG 61 coming back a 62.
But this $10 Indian sweetheart got no love. And by that I mean it didn't just miss my pie in the sky, super optimistic maybe maybe fingers-crossed possibly pretty-please 64?? grade guess.
And it didn't even make my conservative, real world 55-58 guess.
No, the bottom dropped out for her all the way to spurious town. 
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
--Severian the Lame
--Severian the Lame
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I'm curious, why are spending your hard earned money to cross a 94 double eagle, when the price differential between a 45 and 62 is a $100?
Weiss wanted to try out the new hammer.
Because it was in ICG plastic?
--Severian the Lame
Do you have a close up of the Indian that was judged an imposter? (my sympathies, that's gotta hurt)
I'd love to see a picture of the $2 1/2
I have never cracked out anything, except walnuts, do you really use a claw hammer >
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Well yeah, but you guys who know gold would laugh at me for being such a dummy
At least let me have a little dignity by only showing it from afar where it looks damn good to me.
You can actually click on the image to get it a little bigger.
Here's the '28 $2.5
--Severian the Lame
I absolutely did. Held it on edge on a concrete floor (with vinyl tile as show), then hit it gently but firmly on the edge. It cracked neatly to where most of one half of the slab came off with just a wiggle. Nice rubberized insert, btw. I just didn't like it in third world slabbage.
--Severian the Lame
Weiss, don't underestimate your numismatic ability. You have been eyeing coins as long as the rest of us.
Show us the fake $10 close up and let us learn from it.....and maybe it is not a fake at all and the TPG screwed up. It happens.
Who is ATS ?
Across the street. The grader was NGC.
Thanks,...not sure why he would submit to ATS and expect input from OHS (On the High Street).
@Weiss ....Have you determined what indicators are present on the Indian to ascertain it as counterfeit?? It would be helpful to us all to fully understand this - especially if it escaped your evaluation. Cheers, RickO
The hammer method is quick and dirty. Dirty, mostly. Shards end up everywhere. Babies, dogs, and cats suffer. Caution: Must wear glasses. Worse yet, plastic bits get attached to the coin and must be blown off with compressed air. I prefer the drill method. I surgically drill holes in certain areas of the slab and it falls apart, patent pending, lol.
Here she is. I'll reserve my own thoughts about her until those more experienced with raw $10s chime in. In my defense I'll ask this question: You already know how she's been judged by NGC. It may be impossible to erase that knowledge, but try. Would you have known she was a little less than 100% authentic? Or would you have taken the gamble for the $730 I paid for her?
--Severian the Lame
is it gold at least?
I mainly deal with $2 1/2 coins, but the surface looks almost porous to me. Very rough and bumpy or something.
I don't buy raw gold for that reason. There has always been boatloads of fake gold around, I didn't want to study it, and mistakes are expensive. Good luck on it turning out OK.
Now that it's free of the slab, can you weigh it on a set of digital scales? I'm very curious to know if the weight is correct.
To be clear: These image were taken before I shipped her ATS. She won't be back again for some several days. I'm fairly certain she's high karat gold, she weighed spot on.
--Severian the Lame
Hey Weiss,
This is a 1910 I just cracked out of a PCGS MS-63 slab to compare to yours. Could be difference in photo technique (if you can call what I do that---shine some bright lights and hope for the best...) but the surfaces do look quite different.
(see I do have a few US coins
)
ICG said this coin was good ?
I also have an 1910 Eagle, raw.
Purchased from an honest dealer.
I can see no reason to counterfeit the 1910 in real gold. I fear you might be screwed. Where did it come from?
In 1933, FDR issued Executive Order 6102 making it against the law for Americans to own gold bullion. In fact it required Americans to surrender their gold to the government. Small amounts were allowed in some circumstances or were not actively pursued. That included certain types of numismatic material.
After WWII, once the pressure had ebbed a little, goldsmiths in the middle east began producing fake gold coins. Not to fool collectors but to allow Americans and others a way to buy and sell gold under the radar. These pieces were often close if not exact in terms of gold content, size, weight, etc.
http://www.coinweek.com/counterfeits/counterfeit-1912-gold-eagle/
--Severian the Lame
Only if you hammer at it like an idiot. I've learned to hit it a few times on the 4 sides and I'm able to lift up one side of the plastic like a door hinge with little to no plastic debris.
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
I'll hope and pray for your gold! Where did it come from?
Let us know when it is back, I hope it is gold
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
It may well be gold.
Here is the various gambit of emotions one faces when the realization a coin purchased is indeed a counterfeit:
Indulging Imagining the future that your goal achieves, holding out hope the coin is perhaps genuine and the expert(s) wrong with their assessment. Vividly envisioning everything that comes with the achievement of the goal: self-satisfaction, praise, future success. It feels really good to imagine these things. Kind of playing the coin what-if game.
It lights up the same centers of the brain that would light up if you had actually achieved these things. However, this kind of mental strategy doesn't correlate with actual achievement at all.
Dwelling Thinking about all the obstacles ahead of you. What to do if the coin is not genuine? Return to seller? Report to law enforcement? Try again with a second opinion? Pessimistically letting reality get you down. This won't correlate with achievement either.
Mental Contrasting This is when you concentrate on achieving your goals, while at the same time identifying all the obstacles in your way. Not allowing the set-back of one "bad" coin deter you from collecting. By identifying what blocks you from what you want, you create an association between the two that keeps reality in check. Then you must create implementation intentions, specific plans for each obstacle that will lead you to your goal.
Using this strategy correlates with high achievement and you may then move on from the realization the coin is counterfeit.
Fields look like the die was almost sandblasted with heavier grit & I believe I see some on the devices, particularly Liberty. Stars between 1000 and 1100 and edge here bad on obverse.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Likely it's at least 18K gold. They usually are.
Those gold counterfeits can be tricky...
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They said the 1894 $20 was, not the fake $10.
I'd love to see something like this on a US coin:
8 Reales Madness Collection
Instagram: 8 Reales Numis
I appreciate the Schadenfreude.
One of the reasons gold is gold is that, as a material, it's actually pretty tough to counterfeit convincingly. A gold coin made of the same amount of silver would be 30% larger. Or, if the correct size, considerably lighter. In fact, platinum was sometimes used in the past. As this coin was likely made to provide gold rather than deceive, it probably falls along the line of similar mid-century fakes: 18k to 22k. I posted recently about a fake sovereign (one I spotted before buying and subsequently bought at its 18k melt value after confirmation) on the precious metals forum.
--Severian the Lame
Between the Weiss and Stork coin, the UNUM looks different to me along with the surface issue stated by others. May be the different lighting of course, but something about the type looks different.
Here are some fakes from my work:
My YouTube Channel
My YouTube Channel
That gold machine is sweet!
@asheland
Wow, those metal verifiers are really not **that **expensive, does it work well ?
Thanks
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
It seems to be very accurate, however, if the plating is deep enough it can be tricked.
It's great to rule out fakes, but if it says it's genuine, it still could be fake perhaps.
I only saw it get tricked with one of those huge troy pound type rounds that had a heavy coating of silver on it.
I trust it on smaller coins like the one pictured.
My YouTube Channel
Thanks
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
You're welcome.
My YouTube Channel
@asheland
I also noticed this
There are known cases where common alloys can mimic the resistivity of precious metal alloys (It is possible there are other cases):
1) Johnson sandwich coins (modern US coins) have similar reading to gold.
2) Copper has similar reading to Britannia silver (95.8 % silver).
3) Tellurium copper has similar readings to 90% silver.
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Oh, ok, thanks.....I thought these all came out of some sort of plastic.....
What's that line over the date? Other than that I don't see anything that screams 'fake" to me.
Two pair of dollar store pliers, work gloves and eye protection. Snap the holder in two and take the remnants apart like you are fishing the egg shell put of your about to be scrambled eggs. Messy but exciting!
I have seen that and it is correct. The machine is not fool proof, but handy and helps out most of the time. Between the machine and lots of experience, I'm usually good weeding out fakes that come my way.
This machine however:
Is a little harder to fool. It knows EVERYTHING that is present!
It belongs to a friend however and I only have access to it on rare occasions. (and they cost the same as a new compact car) lol
My YouTube Channel
The $10 Ind's surface look too grainy to be genuine.101% no good!
Sorry to hear that. At least some of these, like the Lebanese counterfeits, are real gold.
Just a bit of a hairline.
My observations: the surfaces have a somewhat matte finish but what may look like a sandblasted finish has much more of a metal flow appearance in hand. The eagle's breast has what looks like rub or cabinet friction, but what may also be a weak strike, which was why I hedged in the upper AU range but still hoped for MS. There are a few contact marks on her neck and on the eagle's legs that I felt would keep her from gem regardless.
This piece came from a group of maybe a dozen relatively common gold pieces from a woman selling her father's collection to pay for her daughter's wedding. I've been present when she sold other pieces in the past and I was there on this day, too, as were three other collectors whose opinion I hold in high regard. We all singled the $10 out as the prettiest of the group.
The father started accumulating in the 1960s and probably did through the gold boom of the 1980s. If you think the $10 looks pretty good exposed in good lighting with a good photograph, put yourself in my shoes when it came across the counter with those 8 or 10 other pieces, all in a hodge-podge of old-school holders. From that group, I picked the $10, this saint in a PVC flip, and a sovereign in a coin envelope. For what it's worth, I sent the saint in the same NGC submission, where it graded MS62:
I've really enjoyed the comments and opinions on this thread. Elsewhere I stated that I'm not terribly disappointed with the outcome: I went 6 for 6 raw gold picks that turned out to be Unc. Two pieces I felt were XF and AU came back AU and BU. One additional piece I felt might be XF but probably cleaned came back AU cleaned. All of these pieces were purchased as circulated bullion rather than numismatic pieces. I probably lost $100, maybe $150 on the $10 (assuming it's close to the right gold content), but recouped that many times over on the other pieces. And ultimately, the reason slabbing has become such an important part of our hobby is for this very reason. I paid experts to look at these pieces, grade them, and authenticate them. That's what they did.
--Severian the Lame