One person I think is probably happy about this is the owner of the one example that is legal to own...
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
I can't believe the critical issues of this case as it relates to CAFRA were not considered worthy of consideration by the court. It would seem to me that for all practical purposes CAFRA is now null and void as a result.
Sanction on the other Langbord thread stated:
I just saw the report that the Supreme Court denied the Langbords' Petition.
Very unfortunate news, for the Langbord family, for the hobby and for the residents of the USA. The evolution of society towards one where government at all levels expands/predominates and the freedoms/liberties of the governed shrinks goes on.
Hang on to your property as much as you can and do not use same in a manner that will increase the chances that it will be noticed and taken from you simply because a faceless, nameless person decides that your are not entitled to it.
Kudos to and much admiration/respect for the Langbord family and their attorneys in taking the actions that they did.
if I understand the thread, the Langbord family has to return the coin(s) to the rightful owner. I was in the distinct minority and have thought this was the correct outcome from the start. all the legal wrestling aside, it comes down to a single point from MyLoftyPerch --- should a reasonable person have known that the coin(s) were illegal to own?? good old slippery Izzy Switt knew the answer.
The U.S. Legal system has just declared your property rights null and void.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@keets said:
if I understand the thread, the Langbord family has to return the coin(s) to the rightful owner. I was in the distinct minority and have thought this was the correct outcome from the start. all the legal wrestling aside, it comes down to a single point from MyLoftyPerch --- should a reasonable person have known that the coin(s) were illegal to own?? good old slippery Izzy Switt knew the answer.
The mere fact that insiders (of the government, by the government and for the government) took it upon themselves to get those "coins" graded , opens a can of worms. Let's get reasonable. Then they paraded them from ANA show to ANA show. I disagree with you on many points regarding the way government operates outside of it's own authority, yet somehow that's "okay".
Izzy knew he had coins he shouldn't have and his actions to conceal their whereabouts sort of confirms that fact. I don't view the whole thing as a Big Bad Government issue, but maybe everyone's perceived hero will suit up and save the poor, trod upon Langbord family. I ain't counting on it.
I figure the whole thing worked itself out and "due process" can hold up its head. I hope we have heard the last of it but I fear we have not.
I thought they should be legal until I read the two books on them 10 or so years ago. Totally convinced me the Government was in the right on this case. I have seen nothing to make me change my mind.
(and you don't have many property rights now, stop paying your taxes and see how long you keep your property)
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Izzy knew he had coins he shouldn't have and his actions to conceal their whereabouts sort of confirms that fact. I don't view the whole thing as a Big Bad Government issue, but maybe everyone's perceived hero will suit up and save the poor, trod upon Langbord family. I ain't counting on it.
I figure the whole thing worked itself out and "due process" can hold up its head. I hope we have heard the last of it but I fear we have not.
I have to agree. These coins didn't sit hidden in a large SDB for that long without reason and I find it really hard to believe they kept getting looked over because they had been hidden with papers etc...
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They were stolen property. Would we not want the same justice if 20 years from now someone listed at auction your entire stolen coin collection?
Smithsonian Example last summer.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Keets, the executive order allowed for the "holding of no more than $200 in aggregate" of U.S. gold coinage.
That means Izzy could have kept 10 of the 1933 DE's , and in conformity of law. Ten times $20 is $200 in aggregate. Does that make him a thief ? A liar ? A scoundrel ? The fact that other 1933 coins were attributed to him throughout time, to me, only confirms one thing. He had more than the $200 in aggregate. Perhaps he knew (interpreted law) he could hide away 20 ten dollar gold coins, or 200 one dollar gold coins , or ten of every dated $20 gold with the same dates on them.
It wasn't as if Roosevelt was demanding death to the hobby. On the contrary. The executive order allowed it to continue well on, until someone in government sparked an outrage over the news that "So and So" bought a 1933 Gold Double eagle in auction, ... and that monster's been alive since. That's when the government took the Draconian route.
My contention remains the same. He (Izzy) could have legally gotten a few out to "would-be" collectors and he was probably a " modern coin geek dealer ", except ... he's not here to tell me the rest of the story.
Do we beat the dealer down throughout history because that's the way we do it around here ?
The world went on, and collectors did, too. As much as you'd like to say justice is finally served, I would argue that the same verbiage you use toward me ( as libertarian who's jets are fired, lol.... ), is the same kind of verbiage used throughout history to label others, and maybe vilify them, so as to discredit sound theory.
I disagree with you, in that our justice system got this right. For the sake of diverting attention away from the facts let's bring up politics.
As to my jets, you should be grateful I got a fire burning. This hobby might otherwise be diminished sooner, if not for guys like you, me and countless others who hold it kind of sacred. And I think most of us would like to see those ( 1933 Double Eagles) go piece by piece to collectors through an auction process to see who might like them.
On that note, I just bought a Sara Polk gold spouse proof coin for $650 in the shop, today. I paid more than spot. Just think, I could have traded it in for a new spouse back in the old days.
Keets--Would you like me to respond to you in detail? First, perhaps you weren't aware that during the investigation in 1944 of the 1933 Double Eagles, the Secret Service investigators threatened all of the owners of these coins including my grandfather even though the statute of limitations for theft had passed? Second, did you know that they also confiscated any coins they found by promsing to shut down coin dealers and revoke their licenses? Third, were you aware that when one of the owners fought back, the government made the litigation so time consuming and costly that Barnard, the owner, ran out of money and there wasn't even a trial, the case was decided on stipulated facts? Fourth, are you also aware that up until 1944 1933 Double Eagles were freely and openly traded. They were advertised in the ANA magazine. Farouk turned his coin into the Mint to get his export license and they gave it back! Fifth, what about the fact that even in the Fenton case the legal status of owning a 1933 Double Eagle was never resolved? No final decision of any kind. All the Mint did was agree not to "monetize" any other 1933s whatever that meant. (Ask the people involved in the sale, it was a marketing tool). Sixth, do you know what the final conclusion of the 1944 Secret Service report was? To paraphrase, "in the final analysis we do not know how, when and under what circumstances these coins left the Mint". Shall I go on? Eight, did you know that my grandfather often bought things and never sold them? He owned War Admiral's Kentucky Derby and left it in its case on the stairs in his store for 60 years, so long that everyone believed it had been lost or stolen. Finally, ninth, let me ask you a simple question. I have owned a pocket watch given to me by grandfather (whose name btw is Israel Switt, not "Slippery Izzy Switt") for over thirty years and I have never really worn it or shown it to other people. It isn't my style. Does that mean everyone should presume it was stolen property? If you think that is so, better watch out for your neighbors, you are living among thieves.
Oh, and one last thing, I was a personal friend of John Prine's for a number of years during the time your avatar picture was taken. It hurts me to see you using his image every time you make your assertions against my family...just saying...roy langbord
Here is the most disappointing thing about this case to me. At the very start, my father who was then alive, convinced me that given enough time and reason, the government would eventually always do the right thing. He was a decorated WWII combat veteran. He fought in the Pacific and grew up in the Great Depression. For my dad, Government saved our country. FDR got us out of the depression; Truman won WWII, Eisenhower built the interstate highways and established prosperity and JFK appealed to our best instincts. He never contemplated the power of today's bureaucratic state where it isn't about truth or doing the right or even the reasonable thing, its about winning for your side at all costs. He would have never believed that today's result would have been possible.
Not only is the denial of the Langbords' petition unfortunate for them and the hobby, the published opibion of the En Banc panel of the third circuit becomes final and is legal precedent that works against the governed from whom government seeks property.
25 years ago I represented an elderly widow of a Marine Corp general in a federal asset forfeiture case is Seattle. She, on the advice of a church friend, made a private second mortgage loan on a high end custom home built on the shores of Lake Washington by a blue collar guy who happened to be a pot farmer.
The US Attorney initiated criminal asset forfeiture to take the house and in same claimed my client's second mortgage loan was bogus and that she was a participant in the drug operations of the pot farmer. The US Attorney seriously wanted to take the second mortgage loan away from the widow.
The US Attorney eventually backed off and when the feds took the home and resold it the widow received payment of her loan.
Asset forfeiture on the local, state and national level is a reality and can make life very difficult for those caught in the crosshairs.
Being happy about this "government victory" is like coming home happy from the Roman Colosseum after the lions ate the Christians. If you root for bullies, it's a great day.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Now that the case is over, someone needs to write a book about this whole affair (Roger?). If the general public knew the facts about the case, that there was a open period where these coins could have legally left the mint before the FDR order, what would they think? IMO, this is an issue about property rights in the US and whether the federal government is overstepping citizen rights. Clearly the general public would be interested? Little detail has ever been written about this case, only sound bytes in online news.
@tradedollarnut said:
I vote we give Berke a do over due to 'mis guided legal strategy', call it even and proceed again!
His strategy certainly differs from my thinking, which would have involved prying them from my death grip and screaming like that dude on the United flight!
@rhl said:
Here is the most disappointing thing about this case to me. At the very start, my father who was then alive, convinced me that given enough time and reason, the government would eventually always do the right thing. He was a decorated WWII combat veteran. He fought in the Pacific and grew up in the Great Depression. For my dad, Government saved our country. FDR got us out of the depression; Truman won WWII, Eisenhower built the interstate highways and established prosperity and JFK appealed to our best instincts. He never contemplated the power of today's bureaucratic state where it isn't about truth or doing the right or even the reasonable thing, its about winning for your side at all costs. He would have never believed that today's result would have been possible.
This comment speaks volumes. I wish I could be like your grandfather. I wish we all could. We can't right now.
I can especially feel for your family, as mine was attacked by the government as well. The justice system is corrupt. We're fine, I'm sure you'll be fine. But we don't need or deserve the government we have now.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
Izzy knew he had coins he shouldn't have and his actions to conceal their whereabouts sort of confirms that fact. I don't view the whole thing as a Big Bad Government issue, but maybe everyone's perceived hero will suit up and save the poor, trod upon Langbord family. I ain't counting on it.
I figure the whole thing worked itself out and "due process" can hold up its head. I hope we have heard the last of it but I fear we have not.
I have to agree. These coins didn't sit hidden in a large SDB for that long without reason and I find it really hard to believe they kept getting looked over because they had been hidden with papers etc...
The safety deposit box issue raised by keets is a red herring/pointless. If the Langbords had legally acquired the coins within the permitted window, Roosevelt's executive order would have been unconstitutional as applied to them and would have violated the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. The fact that the coins were hidden does NOT imply guilt; it might be an indication of distrust in the government (Israel Switt had issues with the government before) or not wanting to expend the funds to challenge the constitutionality of the retroactive application of Roosevelt's order to them. Both are perfectly valid reasons.
@PTVETTER said:
Their first mistake was to listen to the attorney that told them to have the MINT evaluate the gold coins.
I agree with this. I think the initial strategy was a poor one, especially from the CAFRA angle.
@rhl - I'm sorry for your family's loss in the litigation. I wish things had turned out differently. I know it is unlikely, but have you tried to garner publicity outside of the coin community? It is rare, but even after a judicial win, sometimes the government will do the right thing.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
I understand everyone's frustration here, but this isn't the type of case that the Supreme Court is going to take on. We care, but most people wouldn't even understand what it's about.
I'm deeply saddened and sickened over the outcome.
Mr Langbord Im in NYC the next ten days. Id love to buy you a drink.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Throwback1959
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Damn
Now we can lay this debackle down to rest.
Even though it was the likely outcome you have no idea how hurt and angry we all feel.
Can Trump write an executive order to give the family back their coins? If so, how do you get his attention?
That is what one fish said to the other when he swam into a wall.
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One person I think is probably happy about this is the owner of the one example that is legal to own...
I can't believe the critical issues of this case as it relates to CAFRA were not considered worthy of consideration by the court. It would seem to me that for all practical purposes CAFRA is now null and void as a result.
So the real question is, now that those 10 are off the table....How many are still out there?
Successful trades.... MichaelDixon,
From the Supreme Court's website:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docketfiles/16-612.htm
Apr 17 2017 Petition DENIED. Justice Gorsuch took no part in the consideration or decision of this petition
Somewhere, King Farouk is laughing.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
Was the attorny heard to say, "That's the way the cookie crumbles."?
So sad.
Long saga.
No good deed goes unpunished...
When corruption reigns... it pours.
Sanction on the other Langbord thread stated:
I just saw the report that the Supreme Court denied the Langbords' Petition.
Very unfortunate news, for the Langbord family, for the hobby and for the residents of the USA. The evolution of society towards one where government at all levels expands/predominates and the freedoms/liberties of the governed shrinks goes on.
Hang on to your property as much as you can and do not use same in a manner that will increase the chances that it will be noticed and taken from you simply because a faceless, nameless person decides that your are not entitled to it.
Kudos to and much admiration/respect for the Langbord family and their attorneys in taking the actions that they did.
thats a total bummer, sorry to hear that.
if I understand the thread, the Langbord family has to return the coin(s) to the rightful owner. I was in the distinct minority and have thought this was the correct outcome from the start. all the legal wrestling aside, it comes down to a single point from MyLoftyPerch --- should a reasonable person have known that the coin(s) were illegal to own?? good old slippery Izzy Switt knew the answer.
The U.S. Legal system has just declared your property rights null and void.
very disappointing
The mere fact that insiders (of the government, by the government and for the government) took it upon themselves to get those "coins" graded , opens a can of worms. Let's get reasonable. Then they paraded them from ANA show to ANA show. I disagree with you on many points regarding the way government operates outside of it's own authority, yet somehow that's "okay".
Joe, cool your Libertarian jets.
Izzy knew he had coins he shouldn't have and his actions to conceal their whereabouts sort of confirms that fact. I don't view the whole thing as a Big Bad Government issue, but maybe everyone's perceived hero will suit up and save the poor, trod upon Langbord family. I ain't counting on it.
I figure the whole thing worked itself out and "due process" can hold up its head. I hope we have heard the last of it but I fear we have not.
Disappointing........I was rooting for the Langbord family.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I thought they should be legal until I read the two books on them 10 or so years ago. Totally convinced me the Government was in the right on this case. I have seen nothing to make me change my mind.
(and you don't have many property rights now, stop paying your taxes and see how long you keep your property)
I have to agree. These coins didn't sit hidden in a large SDB for that long without reason and I find it really hard to believe they kept getting looked over because they had been hidden with papers etc...
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
They were stolen property. Would we not want the same justice if 20 years from now someone listed at auction your entire stolen coin collection?
Smithsonian Example last summer.
the SDB had to be drilled open.
even the gub'mint writes that in their filing.
and conceal? lots of people on here with SDB must have illegal coins....
They sure had a famous lawyer! Too bad about the coins!
Not the outcome we all wanted. I know I'm disappointed. It shouldn't be like this. JMO
Frankie Roosevelt is now quite happy.
Keets, the executive order allowed for the "holding of no more than $200 in aggregate" of U.S. gold coinage.
That means Izzy could have kept 10 of the 1933 DE's , and in conformity of law. Ten times $20 is $200 in aggregate. Does that make him a thief ? A liar ? A scoundrel ? The fact that other 1933 coins were attributed to him throughout time, to me, only confirms one thing. He had more than the $200 in aggregate. Perhaps he knew (interpreted law) he could hide away 20 ten dollar gold coins, or 200 one dollar gold coins , or ten of every dated $20 gold with the same dates on them.
It wasn't as if Roosevelt was demanding death to the hobby. On the contrary. The executive order allowed it to continue well on, until someone in government sparked an outrage over the news that "So and So" bought a 1933 Gold Double eagle in auction, ... and that monster's been alive since. That's when the government took the Draconian route.
My contention remains the same. He (Izzy) could have legally gotten a few out to "would-be" collectors and he was probably a " modern coin geek dealer ", except ... he's not here to tell me the rest of the story.
Do we beat the dealer down throughout history because that's the way we do it around here ?
The world went on, and collectors did, too. As much as you'd like to say justice is finally served, I would argue that the same verbiage you use toward me ( as libertarian who's jets are fired, lol.... ), is the same kind of verbiage used throughout history to label others, and maybe vilify them, so as to discredit sound theory.
I disagree with you, in that our justice system got this right. For the sake of diverting attention away from the facts let's bring up politics.
As to my jets, you should be grateful I got a fire burning. This hobby might otherwise be diminished sooner, if not for guys like you, me and countless others who hold it kind of sacred. And I think most of us would like to see those ( 1933 Double Eagles) go piece by piece to collectors through an auction process to see who might like them.
On that note, I just bought a Sara Polk gold spouse proof coin for $650 in the shop, today. I paid more than spot. Just think, I could have traded it in for a new spouse back in the old days.
Keets--Would you like me to respond to you in detail? First, perhaps you weren't aware that during the investigation in 1944 of the 1933 Double Eagles, the Secret Service investigators threatened all of the owners of these coins including my grandfather even though the statute of limitations for theft had passed? Second, did you know that they also confiscated any coins they found by promsing to shut down coin dealers and revoke their licenses? Third, were you aware that when one of the owners fought back, the government made the litigation so time consuming and costly that Barnard, the owner, ran out of money and there wasn't even a trial, the case was decided on stipulated facts? Fourth, are you also aware that up until 1944 1933 Double Eagles were freely and openly traded. They were advertised in the ANA magazine. Farouk turned his coin into the Mint to get his export license and they gave it back! Fifth, what about the fact that even in the Fenton case the legal status of owning a 1933 Double Eagle was never resolved? No final decision of any kind. All the Mint did was agree not to "monetize" any other 1933s whatever that meant. (Ask the people involved in the sale, it was a marketing tool). Sixth, do you know what the final conclusion of the 1944 Secret Service report was? To paraphrase, "in the final analysis we do not know how, when and under what circumstances these coins left the Mint". Shall I go on? Eight, did you know that my grandfather often bought things and never sold them? He owned War Admiral's Kentucky Derby and left it in its case on the stairs in his store for 60 years, so long that everyone believed it had been lost or stolen. Finally, ninth, let me ask you a simple question. I have owned a pocket watch given to me by grandfather (whose name btw is Israel Switt, not "Slippery Izzy Switt") for over thirty years and I have never really worn it or shown it to other people. It isn't my style. Does that mean everyone should presume it was stolen property? If you think that is so, better watch out for your neighbors, you are living among thieves.
Oh, and one last thing, I was a personal friend of John Prine's for a number of years during the time your avatar picture was taken. It hurts me to see you using his image every time you make your assertions against my family...just saying...roy langbord
So sorry to hear this Roy. Government overreach run amok and all reasonable recourse has been abandoned.
I vote we give Berke a do over due to 'mis guided legal strategy', call it even and proceed again!
Here is the most disappointing thing about this case to me. At the very start, my father who was then alive, convinced me that given enough time and reason, the government would eventually always do the right thing. He was a decorated WWII combat veteran. He fought in the Pacific and grew up in the Great Depression. For my dad, Government saved our country. FDR got us out of the depression; Truman won WWII, Eisenhower built the interstate highways and established prosperity and JFK appealed to our best instincts. He never contemplated the power of today's bureaucratic state where it isn't about truth or doing the right or even the reasonable thing, its about winning for your side at all costs. He would have never believed that today's result would have been possible.
Not only is the denial of the Langbords' petition unfortunate for them and the hobby, the published opibion of the En Banc panel of the third circuit becomes final and is legal precedent that works against the governed from whom government seeks property.
25 years ago I represented an elderly widow of a Marine Corp general in a federal asset forfeiture case is Seattle. She, on the advice of a church friend, made a private second mortgage loan on a high end custom home built on the shores of Lake Washington by a blue collar guy who happened to be a pot farmer.
The US Attorney initiated criminal asset forfeiture to take the house and in same claimed my client's second mortgage loan was bogus and that she was a participant in the drug operations of the pot farmer. The US Attorney seriously wanted to take the second mortgage loan away from the widow.
The US Attorney eventually backed off and when the feds took the home and resold it the widow received payment of her loan.
Asset forfeiture on the local, state and national level is a reality and can make life very difficult for those caught in the crosshairs.
Is this now finally over? Melt 'em, Danno!
Being happy about this "government victory" is like coming home happy from the Roman Colosseum after the lions ate the Christians. If you root for bullies, it's a great day.
Their first mistake was to listen to the attorney that told them to have the MINT evaluate the gold coins.
Now that the case is over, someone needs to write a book about this whole affair (Roger?). If the general public knew the facts about the case, that there was a open period where these coins could have legally left the mint before the FDR order, what would they think? IMO, this is an issue about property rights in the US and whether the federal government is overstepping citizen rights. Clearly the general public would be interested? Little detail has ever been written about this case, only sound bytes in online news.
Best, SH
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His strategy certainly differs from my thinking, which would have involved prying them from my death grip and screaming like that dude on the United flight!
This comment speaks volumes. I wish I could be like your grandfather. I wish we all could. We can't right now.
I can especially feel for your family, as mine was attacked by the government as well. The justice system is corrupt. We're fine, I'm sure you'll be fine. But we don't need or deserve the government we have now.
The safety deposit box issue raised by keets is a red herring/pointless. If the Langbords had legally acquired the coins within the permitted window, Roosevelt's executive order would have been unconstitutional as applied to them and would have violated the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. The fact that the coins were hidden does NOT imply guilt; it might be an indication of distrust in the government (Israel Switt had issues with the government before) or not wanting to expend the funds to challenge the constitutionality of the retroactive application of Roosevelt's order to them. Both are perfectly valid reasons.
I agree with this. I think the initial strategy was a poor one, especially from the CAFRA angle.
@rhl - I'm sorry for your family's loss in the litigation. I wish things had turned out differently. I know it is unlikely, but have you tried to garner publicity outside of the coin community? It is rare, but even after a judicial win, sometimes the government will do the right thing.
Very sad...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
That about sums this up, for me.
VERY DISAPPOINTED
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Love my country, fear my government.
Later, Paul.
I understand everyone's frustration here, but this isn't the type of case that the Supreme Court is going to take on. We care, but most people wouldn't even understand what it's about.
I'm deeply saddened and sickened over the outcome.
Mr Langbord Im in NYC the next ten days. Id love to buy you a drink.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......