Kevin Lipton statement on joint purchase of Dexter/Pogue 1804
Halfsense
Posts: 600 ✭✭✭
**Statement from Kevin Lipton
President, Kevin Lipton Rare Coin, Inc., Beverly Hills, California
April 1, 2017
**
Somewhere over Topeka, Kansas Friday night, while I was flying back to Los Angeles from Baltimore, John Albanese and I jointly purchased the Dexter/Pogue 1804 Draped Bust dollar, PCGS Proof 65, for $3,290,000. This is actually the second time I’ve owned this historic rare coin. I purchased it with Hugh Sconyers for a then-record price of $990,000 on behalf of the American Rare Coin Fund at Auction ’89 in Chicago in 1989.
I bought the coin this time strictly the way I buy everything: on a basis of opportunity. In my opinion, this was the best buy of a high value rare coin in the last 20-plus years. It was a moment of opportunity. I don’t have any customers for it, I just want to enjoy it now.
When opportunity knocks, you have to be there to answer. I was expecting this coin to sell for between $4 and $5 million, and was stunned at this kind of opportunity to acquire it for less than $3.3 million.
John (Albanese) and I have been friends and have done business together for decades. He is one of the most respected numismatists in the world, and was an original co-founder of both PCGS and NGC as well as CAC. We are both excited and happy now to own one of the world’s most famous rare coins.
Comments
Congrats to the two of them. Maybe the coin will sticker now. Just kidding.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I don’t have any customers for it, I just want to enjoy it now.
Sounds good, enjoy.
CAC sticker price going up again!
lipton is the guy that ruined the gold kennedy half for everyone .
The one that paid lots of homeless people to stand in line to get him coins?
If I was in that position, I'd be happy with just enjoying it too.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
In celebration of the purchase, any re-holdered coin will get re-stickered for free.
ya stand in line for 8 hours and you get a can of pringles and a soda pop
About right.
"It's a madhouse", Denver Gold Kennedy release
JustaCommeman:
Wabbit:
Jokes aside, I am aware of instances where JA has purchased, or become co-owner, of coins that failed to sticker. They tend to be coins that are extremely rare in all grades. He is not any more likely to sticker a coin he owns.
An example is an 1838-O half that was auctioned at the ANA Convention in 2015.
Assortment of Rare U.S. Coins to be offered in ANA Platinum Night Auction
Hired actors to stand outside of the Denver mint [or wherever] IIRC to pose as coin buyers thus creating an illusion of unusual demand for said coin.
That's not entirely accurate from what I understand happened.
Congrats to Kevin and John for owing this amazing piece of history.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Were they there to purchase?
I sense a flip for $4M - $4.5M coming pretty soon.
To whom?
Seems like some homeless people were employed, some waited 12 hours overnight (from 10pm to 10am), and payments ranged from $20 to $300.
To some deep pockets collector who likes the idea that KL and JA both felt it was worth $4M-$5M. Statements like that (which Legend also does quite often) tend to bring some buyers out of the wood work. All they need is someone else that stepped up and claiming it was a rip. They want a piece of that.
I have a gold Kennedy. It's in this geodesic plastic dome thing. It's cheezy AF but a gift from a beloved member who's not here anymore. I love it for so many reasons. In hand, it feels so cheap and flimsy, you just gotta love it.
YOU, when your house is done, or the Utah guy when he changes his mind!
"“They already gave me a mark (on my hand) and a $20 bill to go in and buy a coin,” Bob Goffinett said.
“I’ve been standing in line since last night at 10,” another man said.
A coin dealer gave him $20 and a prepaid credit card to go inside and purchase the coin. The buyers were then directed across the street by employees of Kevin Lipton Rare Coins of Beverly Hills, Calif. There they kept a ledger of the people it had hired to buy the half dollars.
“Well I think the most valuable thing about it is that it’s commemorating the 50th anniversary of Kennedy’s passing away, and it’s just a great coin, it’s historic,” Harry Metrano with Kevin Lipton Rare Coins said.
"To whom? " is right. No collector was interested at the realized price. Why should they want to pay anything more? This coin involved a well publicized sale at a major auction.
There are instances of dealer purchases of trophy coins that didn't work out well. Think of the purchase and eventual sale of the 1870-S Half Dime back in the early 1980s.
I read all of Legend's Market Reports/Hot Topics and can't recall them doing this, can you give an example of them promoting 7-figure or like items in this manner?
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
That assumes EVERY big time collector/investor/non-collector attended the sale and knew about the coin. If it was a raving bargain as LK/JA suggested, then Legend and others should have steered one of their big clients into it. We see these big time rarities get bought by middlemen dealers all the time. And much more often than not, it works out well for them. The big time collectors seem afraid to do it on their own. They want the assurance that someone else thought it was a great deal before they stick their toe in the water. Many of them are more apt to buy a coin AFTER the sale when the smoke clears and they can better evaluate what occurred at the sale. How many times have we read in Legend's market reports on $1 MILL coins they bought on spec, and the following week their phone was ringing from interested buyers? Where were they before the auction?
"No collector" will show up in the very near future to buy the coin. And why they didn't buy it outright from the sale will remain between them and their agents/coin dealers. Why do collectors prefer to pay their favorites dealers an extra 15-25% to sell them coins they could have gotten cheaper before the auctions? I don't know. But it happens so frequently it seems to be part of the fabric of major league coin buying. They gain some comfort from buying it directly from a trusted source AFTER the sale when emotions have died down.
Perhaps they have been burned before by getting involved in bidding wars and think the same thing would have happened with this coin. It will be interesting to see how long this coin stays with the current owners. That is a lot of money to tie up in a coin.
In their mind having a big time dealer offer it validates the coin. Would seem that they know not much more about it than how to write the check.
So, give us the Paul Harvey regarding what you understand to have happened re: KL + Denver Mint 3/4 oz Kennedy..
You know, the rest of the story.
Roadrunner:
In almost all major coin auctions, dealers buy coins for inventory. In Pogue II and Pogue V, most coins went to collectors. In Pogue I and Pogue III, many were purchased by dealers for inventory.
I have discussed many of the reasons in my articles. Most collectors like to see coins before they buy them. Sometimes, they like to keep a coin at home for a couple of days before making a decision. They are often intimidated by auctions. They may wish to have a half-hour conversation about the coin with an expert. They may seek opinions from multiple sources. They may have focused on other items in this same auction. In sum, these are just a few of a large number of reasons.
I further discuss the meaning of auction prices in this article:
What are Auction Prices?
I believe that was addressed in the 2 links cited by Zoins.
This is a special situation where the sale had to made legit. There was at least one buyer in the room who was thinking hard. Bet if it had not been a book bid, they would have bid. After the last 1804 debacle many people wondered if this would be a real sale.
I would not be shocked to see the coin flip or be sold in the near future.
None of us know the financial terms of the deal either, could be a really good financial deal, especially with rates where they are.
.
Ha! Who doesn't love GG the Treehugger in that video.
Maybe he will be the next owner of the 1804 with his profits from waiting in line for the Kennedy gold half.
.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Just off the top of my head I recall them buying a $800K-$975K early half cent (I think 1795/1796) in the past couple of years for inventory and immediately posting they were willing to go to $1.2 MILL or more....and the phones were ringing later that week....with them turning down lesser offers. Again, for the bigger players, it's quite common for them to buy major league coins like this, then state they were willing to go a LOT higher. Seems to me this has become more common since Newman, Pogue, Gardner, hit the blocks starting in 2013.
they will make a profit on the coin. I have little doubt. How much profit only time will tell.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Lipton is one of the premier marketeers and insiders out there. Having JA as partner (Mr. CAC) is a nice plus. Wouldn't surprise me if the coin is gone within a month....and at worst case before the stock market peaks.
What is the current value for mentioned JFK gold coin?
I understand completely. I have a one oz. American Gold Eagle that my darling wife bought for me as a gift. It was a great deal. She only paid $19.95 +shipping. She saw it advertised on late night T.V. I've yet to explain to her what the "copy" stamp on the reverse stands for. I use it for a paperweight. As far as she's concerned, it's the real deal. I love that little gal.
Uhm.....no. You are mistaken
I'd assume that the high roller deals mention the coin to their high roller customers, yet it doesn't appear that a dealer bought it for a customer which suggests a lack of an immediate buyer.
I'm 100% certain KL/JA will have no problem selling this coin.
JB
Congrats to Kevin and JA!
They will probably make money on before they sell it!!
Headline news. Just fantastic.
100% Positive BST transactions
I might even buy it at a higher price in one to two years in case I have more money then.
The value of a coin is determined by (a) historical prices, (b) contemporary comparable prices of similar items and most important (c) are there (at least two) collectors out there who need or want the coin.
The strength of the 1804 Dollar is (a) and (b), the weakness is (c) as its not a coin that fits really into a special collection, its more like a collection in itself.
The 1793 PCGS 58 Liberty Cap Cent at Pogue brought 940k because I needed the coin and another collector needed it too. Without me the coin would have sold for 500k USD. Without the other collector probably 400k and thats what has happened to the 1804 Dollar.
Stupid from Del, Simpson etc not to bid on the coin.
That's what the media reported. If I recall the coverage correctly, actors/confederates were also hired to create hype for the coin.
The above was off the top of my head. Since you required more specific information..........here's one similar transaction out of Feb 2016 Pogue. Though not specifically purchased for inventory, based on the price it went for, they surely would have purchased it....and then entertained offers...and/or placed it.
"Legend lives for numismatic events like this. The Pogue Collection ranks among the greatest ever formed. This past week group III was sold at Sotheby’s in NYC.
Having had time to plan, we thought we were ready. However when the sale started, the action was far different then what we had anticipated. The results were much weaker then we had expected. The two highlight coins-the 1C 1793 Chain PCGS MS65RB and the $5 1815 PCGS MS65 BOTH sold for sums far less then expected and were UNDER $1 million each. In fact shockingly NO coin broke $1 million in last weeks sale.
Legend purchased the 1C 1793 Chain for $998,750.00-an absolute steal! We had figured it for $1.3 million to $1.5 million hammer. Others had figured it for $2 million. We were stunned when it opened and closed with no other bidding then us. Of course our client was delighted. We view what happened with this coin as a total aberration. This proved out when we turned down a serious offer of a $150,000.00 profit (this coin was bought for a collection, and our client was willing to pay much more). So even though the coin brought LESS then a million at the sale, the market still dictates it is worth NORTH of $1 million."
Operative words: "Of course our client was delighted."
Legend doesn't buy million dollar coins and hype them for profit. Your assertion is false
You mean they didn't hype that for potential future profit for their client and/or themselves? Sure seems that way to me. Both of our assertions may not be 100% true. I think mine is closer to the truth. And there's certainly no doubt that coins under 7 figures in inventory are hyped for profit....as many/most dealers do. Let's see how they do going forward on $1 MILL newps. "Never" or "Always" are not easy standards to live up to.
No - they believe in what they bought...and are communicating that. What would the point be of hyping a coin for potential profit now when it won't reappear for years or decades? Your assertion makes no sense
RR,
You seem to have a strongly negative bias towards Legend. What's the basis for your negativity? Why you get so personal?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
See, RR - this is where you've gone off the deep end a bit lately. You made a false assertion and then tried to back it up with a quote that even proved it was false. Instead of acknowledging that you erred, you doubled down.
It's ok to be wrong - we all are sometimes. It's not ok to never acknowledge it and to continue to blast away. I just have to quote a recent PM now to give you a bit of perspective:
"Btw, what's the beef between RR and L? He seemed like a straight shooter to me for a very long time, but now seems like a cranky old fart with an axe to grind."
Do you really want to be remembered as the cranky old fart with an axe to grind?