A number of issues with Legend over the years for sure....some of which you are keenly aware. I've shot it straight and will continue to do so. If that's your definition of "cranky" I can live with it. It's not like you as one of the financial backers and EVP as an ex-Legend employee aren't uniquely biased to the opposite side. I expect ALL dealers to live up to the standards they preach and post. Simple as that. And when they don't, it invites questions. Yeah, sometimes I'm not 100% right. Most of the time I'm in the ball park which is what matters. You may be somewhat blinded by the CoinCommando blather of last month (since banned and all posts erased from the forum).
I, as their backer, am quite certain that they don't buy million dollar coins for stock and hype them for profit. I won't allow it so it simply doesn't happen. Your assertion is false
If Legend has a max bid for a client much higher than the price realized and reports that fact, it's not hype and it's not for profit.
If Legend has a max bid for a client much higher than the price realized and reports that fact, it's not hype and it's not for profit.
OK that statement is fair. So why even report that information? What's the intended purpose? If the coin is already sold and spoken for via a client, why even mention that other higher offer(s) were immediately made or that the client/we were willing to go much higher? If not for hype, and not for any potential current/future profits....then what is the primary reason?
I ask again. Why? If there's no hype or profit motive in those statements, which you have clearly stated above that there was none, then it should be easy and harmless to explain the "why." Clearly, I got the wrong impression from those Feb 2016 market report statements over a year ago. And never forget them until posting about them yesterday in the course of discussion about buying major rarities at auction. I just want to know where I went "wrong."
I know that if I buy a coin significantly below my max, I enjoy talking about that attribute of my purchase, even if I don't intend to resell. I think we all do.
Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
I have sold better coins to Legend and it was a top notch experience. Fair offers and lightning fast payment. The above comments (insults) are childish at best.
If I had the money I would not bid or be interested in it, I find the fingerprint to be very distracting.
That's just me, what do I know I'm just a two bit collector.
There are other dealers who have written stuff like paying less than their max, and yet you single out Legend like a JYD refusing to let go of the bone. I do not know what prior beef you have had with Legend, but your behavior here surprises me. I see no other veteran dealer who comes on here and bemoans his treatment from another dealer.
I used to think you were a good guy with much accurate analysis to present. Not so much anymore. I gloss over your posts now because they are too verbose and rant-filled.
You say that you are a straight shooter. Well, I think I am too. From one straight shooter to another: how about you dial down the venom a notch or two and just try to keep things constructive. I am 1000% convinced that you are filled with great knowledge and experience and would love to have back the guy I met almost 20 years ago.
I was not in attendance for this sale, but I was for Pogue IV, when the previous 1804 failed to sell/meet reserve, etc. I think that episode was enough to keep a few bidders off this coin and Kevin/John ended up getting a great deal this week.
Auctions are a funny place sometimes, and strange things happen. Sometimes coins sell for way more than anyone anticipates because of the "fever" in the room. Much of the Missouri cabinet sold higher than expectations for this reason. In this case, a few folks laid off the 1804 on the assumption it would sell higher, and now they probably regret not buying it. While the 1804 doesn't fit in traditional registry sets, it still is the undisputed king of coins, at least in my lifetime, and it would appear they got a great deal. Of course, everyone in the world knows what it sold for, so time will tell how good a deal it is. Personally, I think they have very little downside at $3.3M.
As Publisher of the Greysheet, I am hopeful this coin sells quickly for a profit for the new buyers. That would be a great story for the hobby, and whoever owns this special coin is lucky indeed.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
I think everyone at the sale was surprised it went that "cheaply", and there were many others that thought it was a great deal at that level. Kevin and John both were prepared to put their money where there mouth is and step up and buy the coin if it went under the perceived value. They have both done this many times and have "won" many more times than lost. Both have a great sense of value. It also helps that the coin is now in "strong hands" and won't need to be resold under duress. Congrats to both Kevin and John.
@Justacommeman said:
Congrats to the two of them. Maybe the coin will sticker now. Just kidding.
mark
This particular example has never been submitted to CAC, so it's possible. I've held it in hand and I can say it's the least overgraded 1804 that I've seen
I remember when Johnny Carson as Carnac the Magnificent (a seer) would hold an envelope to his head and say something that answered a question from within the envelope. An appealing 1804 dollar at a reasonable price level is in the hands of a dealer(s) who makes deals. Ok my futuristic predication as I put the envelope to my head "Major coin collector smiling ear to ear." Time will tell if the Magnificent Coin Seer can see the future....
@Justacommeman said:
Congrats to the two of them. Maybe the coin will sticker now. Just kidding.
mark
This particular example has never been submitted to CAC, so it's possible. I've held it in hand and I can say it's the least overgraded 1804 that I've seen
Just out of curiosity, what would you feel is the "accurate" grade for such a piece?
...Not that it matters terribly much on these kinds of rarities!!
@roadrunner said:
I sense a flip for $4M - $4.5M coming pretty soon.
To whom?
To some deep pockets collector who likes the idea that KL and JA both felt it was worth $4M-$5M. Statements like that (which Legend also does quite often) tend to bring some buyers out of the wood work. All they need is someone else that stepped up and claiming it was a rip. They want a piece of that.
I read all of Legend's Market Reports/Hot Topics and can't recall them doing this, can you give an example of them promoting 7-figure or like items in this manner?
Just off the top of my head I recall them buying a $800K-$975K early half cent (I think 1795/1796) in the past couple of years for inventory and immediately posting they were willing to go to $1.2 MILL or more....and the phones were ringing later that week....with them turning down lesser offers. Again, for the bigger players, it's quite common for them to buy major league coins like this, then state they were willing to go a LOT higher. Seems to me this has become more common since Newman, Pogue, Gardner, hit the blocks starting in 2013.
Uhm.....no. You are mistaken
RR, I also think you are really wrong here. I know Legend quite well.
They buy coins like these for their clients and are happy that they got them cheap, thats all.
None of these coins were for sale again.
I don't even know RR, but do see some of what he says. I also hate when a defensive question is asked of a question. "Why would s/he do [such and such....]?". That always sounds a bit Nixonian or now "Trumpian" & smacks of guilt. I'll leave that alone.
So that is irritating to be sure, and so is all the bombast we get subjected to. Perhaps that is what generates his (RR's) reaction, though as stated not here to side with him or anybody. Laura is certainly free to hype up whatever & especially on her own site; IMO he is wrong to then criticize her about comments she has made on her own site. When another (such as ) uses this forum for defense of her, then responses are fair but best measured.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@7Jaguars said:
I don't even know RR, but do see some of what he says. I also hate when a defensive question is asked of a question. "Why would s/he do [such and such....]?". That always sounds a bit Nixonian or now "Trumpian" & smacks of guilt. I'll leave that alone.
So that is irritating to be sure, and so is all the bombast we get subjected to. Perhaps that is what generates his (RR's) reaction, though as stated not here to side with him or anybody. Laura is certainly free to hype up whatever & especially on her own site; IMO he is wrong to then criticize her about comments she has made on her own site. When another (such as ) uses this forum for defense of her, then responses are fair but best measured.
7Jag,
Consider this please: (1) RR explicitly said that he's had problems with Legend in the past; (2) RR markets himself as a veteran dealer; (3) how many veteran dealers come here to complain about other dealers; (4) it is common for people in sales to behave like salesmen.
Edited to add: I met RR almost 20y ago and have the utmost respect for him. His JYD-with-a-bone behavior towards Legend smacks of something not quite meeting the eye.
Comments
A number of issues with Legend over the years for sure....some of which you are keenly aware. I've shot it straight and will continue to do so. If that's your definition of "cranky" I can live with it. It's not like you as one of the financial backers and EVP as an ex-Legend employee aren't uniquely biased to the opposite side. I expect ALL dealers to live up to the standards they preach and post. Simple as that. And when they don't, it invites questions. Yeah, sometimes I'm not 100% right. Most of the time I'm in the ball park which is what matters. You may be somewhat blinded by the CoinCommando blather of last month (since banned and all posts erased from the forum).
http://www.legendnumismatics.com/product/25c-1820-pcgs-pr64-sm-o-ex-norweb/
I, as their backer, am quite certain that they don't buy million dollar coins for stock and hype them for profit. I won't allow it so it simply doesn't happen. Your assertion is false
If Legend has a max bid for a client much higher than the price realized and reports that fact, it's not hype and it's not for profit.
@roadrunner
Chill dude. A picture is worth a thousand words.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
OK that statement is fair. So why even report that information? What's the intended purpose? If the coin is already sold and spoken for via a client, why even mention that other higher offer(s) were immediately made or that the client/we were willing to go much higher? If not for hype, and not for any potential current/future profits....then what is the primary reason?
Why not?
I ask again. Why? If there's no hype or profit motive in those statements, which you have clearly stated above that there was none, then it should be easy and harmless to explain the "why." Clearly, I got the wrong impression from those Feb 2016 market report statements over a year ago. And never forget them until posting about them yesterday in the course of discussion about buying major rarities at auction. I just want to know where I went "wrong."
Since when is it necessary to justify reporting the facts?
" A picture is worth a thousand words."
Indeed it is. Beautiful piece, EVP.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I know that if I buy a coin significantly below my max, I enjoy talking about that attribute of my purchase, even if I don't intend to resell. I think we all do.
Exactly. It's not hype if she says she had a million dollar bid but someone else went to $1.5M ....so why is it hype if she reports the reverse?
I have sold better coins to Legend and it was a top notch experience. Fair offers and lightning fast payment. The above comments (insults) are childish at best.
If I had the money I would not bid or be interested in it, I find the fingerprint to be very distracting.
That's just me, what do I know I'm just a two bit collector.
INYNWHWeTrust-TexasNationals,ajaan,blu62vette
coinJP, Outhaul ,illini420,MICHAELDIXON, Fade to Black,epcjimi1,19Lyds,SNMAN,JerseyJoe, bigjpst, DMWJR , lordmarcovan, Weiss,Mfriday4962,UtahCoin,Downtown1974,pitboss,RichieURich,Bullsitter,JDsCoins,toyz4geo,jshaulis, mustanggt, SNMAN, MWallace, ms71, lordmarcovan
@roadrunner
There are other dealers who have written stuff like paying less than their max, and yet you single out Legend like a JYD refusing to let go of the bone. I do not know what prior beef you have had with Legend, but your behavior here surprises me. I see no other veteran dealer who comes on here and bemoans his treatment from another dealer.
I used to think you were a good guy with much accurate analysis to present. Not so much anymore. I gloss over your posts now because they are too verbose and rant-filled.
You say that you are a straight shooter. Well, I think I am too. From one straight shooter to another: how about you dial down the venom a notch or two and just try to keep things constructive. I am 1000% convinced that you are filled with great knowledge and experience and would love to have back the guy I met almost 20 years ago.
With sincerest respect,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I was not in attendance for this sale, but I was for Pogue IV, when the previous 1804 failed to sell/meet reserve, etc. I think that episode was enough to keep a few bidders off this coin and Kevin/John ended up getting a great deal this week.
Auctions are a funny place sometimes, and strange things happen. Sometimes coins sell for way more than anyone anticipates because of the "fever" in the room. Much of the Missouri cabinet sold higher than expectations for this reason. In this case, a few folks laid off the 1804 on the assumption it would sell higher, and now they probably regret not buying it. While the 1804 doesn't fit in traditional registry sets, it still is the undisputed king of coins, at least in my lifetime, and it would appear they got a great deal. Of course, everyone in the world knows what it sold for, so time will tell how good a deal it is. Personally, I think they have very little downside at $3.3M.
As Publisher of the Greysheet, I am hopeful this coin sells quickly for a profit for the new buyers. That would be a great story for the hobby, and whoever owns this special coin is lucky indeed.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
I think everyone at the sale was surprised it went that "cheaply", and there were many others that thought it was a great deal at that level. Kevin and John both were prepared to put their money where there mouth is and step up and buy the coin if it went under the perceived value. They have both done this many times and have "won" many more times than lost. Both have a great sense of value. It also helps that the coin is now in "strong hands" and won't need to be resold under duress. Congrats to both Kevin and John.
This particular example has never been submitted to CAC, so it's possible. I've held it in hand and I can say it's the least overgraded 1804 that I've seen
Really is a wonderful example of an 1804 dollar and undoubtedly will end up in an important numismatic cabinet soon.
The KL/JA cabinet?
Kevin Lipton will forever be known as a part owner of this beautiful, rare coin. That has a nicer ring to it than his other bit of history.
I'm wondering who gets custody?
I'm betting the coin will see plenty of public exposure at major shows, etc.
Congrats guys.
OMG. LOL!
I remember when Johnny Carson as Carnac the Magnificent (a seer) would hold an envelope to his head and say something that answered a question from within the envelope. An appealing 1804 dollar at a reasonable price level is in the hands of a dealer(s) who makes deals. Ok my futuristic predication as I put the envelope to my head "Major coin collector smiling ear to ear." Time will tell if the Magnificent Coin Seer can see the future....
My prediction didn't take long to come true!
Just out of curiosity, what would you feel is the "accurate" grade for such a piece?
...Not that it matters terribly much on these kinds of rarities!!
I think it's accurately graded as a 64. In general, they're all overgraded by two points so this one is better than average.
RR, I also think you are really wrong here. I know Legend quite well.
They buy coins like these for their clients and are happy that they got them cheap, thats all.
None of these coins were for sale again.
Ummm, where I can get backer to support my Morgan habit? Is there a line or something?
Don't quote me on that.
"to whom?"
Stewart started it.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I don't even know RR, but do see some of what he says. I also hate when a defensive question is asked of a question. "Why would s/he do [such and such....]?". That always sounds a bit Nixonian or now "Trumpian" & smacks of guilt. I'll leave that alone.
So that is irritating to be sure, and so is all the bombast we get subjected to. Perhaps that is what generates his (RR's) reaction, though as stated not here to side with him or anybody. Laura is certainly free to hype up whatever & especially on her own site; IMO he is wrong to then criticize her about comments she has made on her own site. When another (such as ) uses this forum for defense of her, then responses are fair but best measured.
Well, just Love coins, period.
7Jag,
Consider this please: (1) RR explicitly said that he's had problems with Legend in the past; (2) RR markets himself as a veteran dealer; (3) how many veteran dealers come here to complain about other dealers; (4) it is common for people in sales to behave like salesmen.
Edited to add: I met RR almost 20y ago and have the utmost respect for him. His JYD-with-a-bone behavior towards Legend smacks of something not quite meeting the eye.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Let's let bygones be bygones and move on from here