How does the price guide handle this?
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,237 ✭✭✭✭✭
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-6QOU0
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-6QOTT
An ms65 realized the same price as an ms64. That I did not think I'd see
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I bet they simply ignore these two data and keep price guide as is
Fwiw, the Pcgs price guide for a 64+ is $140k
@tradedollarnut - very interesting that they both brought the exact same price...well out of my grade range of familiarity with bust dollars...is the 64 really a 65 or the 65 really a 64? I mean, if you had to choose one, which would you have bought?
By the price realized, they are both nice 64's
could color have played a role?
They could make the prices for 64, 64+ and 65 the same. Sometimes there's little or no difference.
Of note:
No beans to clutter up the inserts is a nice change...or is it?
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If the 64 was beaned and the 65 not beaned, perhaps all would be right in the universe
The 65 was not beaned - not according to the CAC pop report
I'm a bit miffed because the Pogue grade/price realized combination was a disaster for early dollar collectors
The two 1795 flowing hair gems realized less than I paid for a nice 64 and much less than my 64+. Now this result. They've set back an orderly market by a decade. Grrrrr.
Take the average of the two prices and use it for both grades!
Absence of a clear, consistent standard rewards an upward slide, and punishes all others.
Time to try for some upgrades?
I don't think it's unusual at all for coins 1 grade apart to bring the same price. It happens all the time in choice/gem 18th/19th century type. In flipping through the run of the gem Blue Moon proof sets it wasn't unusual to see PF66 vs. PF67 seated halves bringing the same money. The highest graded No Drapery half (MS67) has brought the same money as other MS65 pieces.....simply reflecting the notion that the coins are of similar quality, despite the assigned grades.
The obverse of the MS-65 is darker which some collectors might not like.
The fact is the number Bust Dollars that approach this level of preservation is so low that the market is super thin. There are simply are not enough such coins to create a basis for a price guide that would be anything other than speculation.
Put a coin like either of these pieces under the nose of a sophisticated collector who has the money and the desire to own such a piece, and the price for either one could be interchangeable.
Perhaps the money and demand drawn by the most current and recent Pogue Sales have had something to do with that. Despite thoughts to the contrary, not every Wall Street trader who makes a seven or eight digit income is a coin collector.
I actually like the 64 coin better than the 65. The 64 looks like an earlier die state with a little more detail and I like the toning better. My opinion based on the photos is that one is not really any better than the other than my preference for the 64. It may not have helped that both of these appeared at the same time in the same auction.
Maybe the 65 was low end for the grade- no CAC. Maybe the 64 has high end for the grade - was CACd.
Maybe the coins just spoke for themselves over the slabs and beans!
Maybe you know who bought the 64?
Since there are only 2 in 65 grade, any recent showings of the other 65? If not, will probably go down as an anomaly. Or maybe the 65 grade slips down a tad.
I'm way out of my depth here posting with you sir, but with my layman's eye... the 65 is a superior Strike in the obverse/reverse. The denticles (sp?) are stronger and more pronounced from 6:30-8 reverse. From 3-6:30 it's mush or nothing.
Why are they mushy from 7-12:05 on obverse? Are they all like this?
The obverse darkness is neat and colorful but the bright green almost almost looks like pvc to me. I see that it looks like color close up. There is also greenish tone around the letters like camouflage.
The 64
Reverse denticle mush from 3-8:15 weak letter Strike along rim in this area and the denticles disappeared in the close up.
The obverse has less detail and a rim hit across from her nose. Weaker hair details too. The star just below this has a die crack or scratch from rim oriented tip.
It does have a better overall eye appeal color look from afar but the Strike is inferior to the 65 both sides.
Are all examples commonly weak in theses areas?
If I bought coins in this realm and had a choice between the two raw, I would take the 65 based on Strike characteristics alone. Overall character and fabric too.
Side note. It's curious to me the points on the stars aimed at rim are all a bit different (hand carved i guess) the left point between the denticles but on the right side there are four that point directly AT denticle tips.
And on the 65 the rim oriented star across from her chin looks doubled or split. Extra points for variation in my book. It's one of those denticle tip pointing
I studied the images in your links the way I would a Jefferson nickel when Variety hunting. I took so many screen shots for comparison that I could not load them all lol.
Either the 65 got a deal or the 64 overpaid.
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Gorgeous coin, but the toning reminds me of the mysterious incident of the dog in the night.
...is the 64 really a 65 or the 65 really a 64? I mean, if you had to choose one, which would you have bought?
Number folly has definitely taken hold of the hobby of coin collecting.Having said this,i would go for the 65. Crack it and put in self slab is what I would do. The labels for both pieces are a distraction.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
That is a gorgeous coin, but there is no way that it could look that way today without some help. The piece has been dipped. That is not to say that most coins of this era have been "helped" in one way or another, and if the truth be told if they had not been "helped" they would not be as saleable.
Here a couple of dollars that I believe are original. The first one is an EF-45.
This one is graded AU-58
And yes, most of the early coins in my collection have been "helped" like this one. I think that this has good eye appeal, but it is not original.
OMG!!!
I would be very proud to own either coin!
In reference to my above comments, this one you posted seems to have much better rim denticle Strike and generally a superior Strike than either in your original links.
The only weakness I see is around and below OF on the reverse. And some weakness in the top of the hair and the curl from below earlobe
This example IS a different die than the first two, I would guess based on the stars and rim oriented tips again.
All (except top R) seem to point between denticles on the right side obverse and the upper two on the left point at denticles now.
Is this a separate published die variety? Am I seeing this wrong?These coins are very intriguing.
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Has anyone ever counted the denticles? I can't from my phone
Are they enhanced on the clean version you posted? There are ones of varying length and shape.
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/