Average quantity of cents and half-cents struck from a pair of dies – 1795
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
The following is an extract from a report to the Committee on the Mint of Congress by Engraver Robert Scot.
“…cents at a mean, have been struck from the same dies, i.e., from each pair, to the amount of about twenty thousand; and half cents, twelve thousand.
“None of the other coins have been struck as yet in such abundance so as to furnish sufficient data whereby to estimate how many their respective dies will strike.
“Robert Scot, Engraver”
That is: Cent dies averaged 20,000 and half-cent dies about 12,000 good pieces per pair.
3
Comments
Thanks for the info
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
“…cents at a mean, have been struck from the same dies, i.e., from each pair, to the amount of about twenty thousand; and half cents, twelve thousand."
My figures show cents = 19,682 half cents = 13,097 , or there about.
R.I.P. Bear
@RogerB posted, _The following is an extract from a report to the Committee on the Mint of Congress by Engraver Robert Scot.
“…cents at a mean, have been struck from the same dies, i.e., from each pair, to the amount of about twenty thousand; and half cents, twelve thousand.
“None of the other coins have been struck as yet in such abundance so as to furnish sufficient data whereby to estimate how many their respective dies will strike.
“Robert Scot, Engraver”
That is: Cent dies averaged 20,000 and half-cent dies about 12,000 good pieces per pair._
....
@RogerB, Thanks for posting this.
By chance do you have the same type of numbers for the 1795 dated U.S. Silver half dimes, half dollars, and / or silver dollars? Thanks. You do state that "none of the other coins have been struck as yet in such abundance so as to furnish sufficient data whereby to estimate how many their respective dies will strike," so I'm really asking if this information on early silver coins dated 1795 has been found in a later extract.
....
...
Photo courtesy of W. David Perkins and Rory Rea
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
WDP -
Thus far, average die life for silver and gold coins has not turned up. The Scot document is part of an undated group at NARA in Philadelphia. I've been able to locate dates for some of these. If I come across the numbers you want, I'll post them.
PS: Beautiful half disme.
That beautiful half disme sure looks like a dollar to me.
Lance.
It's a B-5 BB-27 3lvs Half disme
R.I.P. Bear
Remarkable coin. Here's another.
Lance.
I find it truly amazing what can be found in these old archives....Roger, I commend you on your diligence ... and cannot imagine what volumes of data you must go through to find the gems of information you provide here and in your writings... Thank you.... Cheers, RickO
I agree with ricko - impressive sleuthing!
I will add that die life reaching 20,000 was probably at the top end, of the best dies.
Given how many scarce varieties there are indicates many failed much earlier.
To keep this thread alive...as I love the cents of '95 but only have these imaged from my collection:
A thick planchet, lettered edge:
Thin planchet, plain edge - much more common than the thick planchet:
I'm attempting to post items that many are not aware of, or that have been published in highly edited versions in old publications. As I learned in researching the Peace dollars, sometimes a seemingly minor transcription error can change the meaning of a document. This was the case with a transcription error made by Don Taxay, that was subsequently copied many times.
As you noted, 'ricko,' it takes a lot of time to go through the original materials page by page. Some can be easily skipped, but others require not only reading the document but recognizing its context and relationship to other materials. That is why I put a lot of work into identifying the date and location of originals. Also, the transcription volunteers have added clarity to materials and made making connections between one letter and another written a year earlier much easier. (Essentially none of this material is digitized or searchable, except for pieces prepared by individuals.)
My current research project relates to distribution and restriking of pattern and circulation pieces from about 1835 to 1885. While prior writers have reached many interesting conclusions, and many of these are generally correct, a lot of other things are coming out of public and private archives that could result in significant changes in our understanding.
My intent is that these posts are positive information for collectors, especially new ones, and transcend discussions of mere temporary monetary value.
@lkeigwin asked, Is there a way to tell the difference between the half dime and dollar with a picture (obviously in hand the size would be apparent)?
Lance.
Good question Lance. It helps to have examples of the two denominations to study and compare. Here are examples of both. The first coin below is a 1795 Flowing Hair Dollar. The second is a 1795 FH Half Dime.
You can now compare the two obverse dies and note key differences. Here are a few.
The bottom portion of Liberty is slightly curved on the half dime. The stars on the half dime are "closer in" from the rim to Liberty, as are the letters on the reverse to the wreath. Liberty's hair overlaps the first stars on the left and the lower curl in Liberty's hair is visible on the Dollar, and straighter on the Half Dime.
Photo courtesy of W. David Perkins and PCGS.
Photo courtesy of PCGS and CoinFacts.
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN
never mind...confusion cleared up below.
Lance, Now you have me confused,,,I was joking when I wrote
below your post. The WDP coin is a dollar & is a B-5 BB-27 3 leaf
marriage and a very beautiful dollar it is. Hope I did not make the
post confusing.
R.I.P. Bear
Ha. I didn't know that, LML. You're such a smart guy I believe everything you say (especially after RWB called it a half disme).
So David, never mind.
And thank you all for restoring my sanity. I'll go back to my Overtons and not ask any more silly questions about half dismes and dollars.
Lance.
Lance, you wouldn't know how to ask a silly question.
Your posts are always interesting & informative and
your coins are beautiful to see when you post them !
R.I.P. Bear
Given the number of coins with die cracks and cuds, I wonder if die cracks and cuds were considered production grade coins back in the day?
According to Scot, most dies never made it to the presses -- they failed during hardening & tempering.
Ike:
WDP:
He was probably just joking. The joke fell flat and you guys are rubbing it in. Some of the most embarrassing moments in my life have occurred when I tell a joke and people listening or reading think I am being serious. When I try to explain the joke, the situation may become even more embarrassing. People may continue to interpret the original statement literally without truly realizing that it was intended to be a joke. A remark can seem very funny in my mind and not be recognized as such by others. Coin people are rarely successful comedians.
I am sure that he knows the difference between a 1795 silver dollar and a 1792 half disme.
Also, the difference between a 1795 half dime and a silver dollar is apparent enough, WDP. The related, interesting issue is how to tell the difference, without seeing the coins, between a 1795 Flowing Hair half dollar and a silver dollar if the images have the same diameters, respectively. The relations of the stars to the respective borders provide clues. There are additional differences, which WDP may explain.
RogerB:
As the products of some die pairings are extremely rare while others are plentiful, the actual life of some dies must have varied tremendously from the average life. Some dies must have cracked after just a few hundred pieces were struck? Among early U.S. coins overall, not just 1795 dated coins, there are quite a few die pairings for which fewer than seven pieces are known, in some cases just two or one!
Was this because the dies were often not properly annealed? Were there often problems with the ways in which dies were deployed? The following statement suggests that many problems were caused before deployment. If so, could it be true that some such problems might not have been diagnosed and problematic dies may have been used without the problems being recognized before usage?
RogerB:
As to the date of the extract of Robert Scot's report that Roger posted, the three person "Committee on the Mint" was appointed on December 9, 1794, and the Committee's findings were presented to Congress on February 9, 1795, by Elias Boudinot. Scot's report was written sometime between those dates, as Scot was responding to Committee questions.
I had estimated and published that the Scot report was most likely written in January, 1795. However, in an article in the 5-15-2016 JR Newsletter, David Finkelstein found a report dated December 20, 1794 by Mint Treasurer Dr. Nicholas Way, that was also responding to Committee questions. He concluded that Scot's report was probably submitted on the same date. I agree with this.
Prior to December 20, 1794, there were only small deliveries of 1,758 dollars on October 15, 1794 and 5,300 half dollars on December 1, which was not enough to "furnish sufficient data" as Scot explained, to "to estimate how many their respective dies will strike."
Changes were made as a result of Scot's report and the Committee's findings, including Adam Eckfeldt as "Die Forger and Turner," who improved the die annealing, hardening, and tempering processes that enabled longer die life.
This is an image I had taken in 2010 at the National Archives in Philadelphia, of the last page of Robert Scot's report, where Scot states "the precariousness and uncertainty of hardening and tempering the Dies, whereby they are often lost without striking a single Coin;" (Record Group 104, Folder 14, notation on Folder: Box 1, NC-152, E-14, HM 1992).
If 20,000 (round number) is the average number of strikes per die, and the rare varieties suggest that certain dies failed early, then certain dies must have struck well over 20,000 coins each to bring the average up to 20,000.
Look at that one Small Eagle dollar reverse that survived six die marriages!
12,000 for half cents!!
Modern dies are virtually brand new (EDS) after 12,000 strikes. There have been many improvements in die steels and especially those in the '70's and '80's.
A modern cent die will get well over 100 times as many strikes but, of course, modern cents are nice soft zinc.
In situations where we have 19th and early 20th die life numbers form the Coiner, there is nearly always a very wide range of actual usable lifetime. Scot refers to the "mean" - and that same approach was used in later years.
A correspondent noted:
"Was just looking at that thread on the PCGS forum and the figures struck me as way off. The I realized you didn't make it clear they were referring to the die life of the cents and half cents of 1794. Die life must have increased greatly in 1795 because in 1794 they used 37 obv dies to make 918,000 cents which is pretty close to the 20,000 figure you gave. But in 1795 they struck 537,000 cents and only used 5 obv dies.. Roughly a five fold increase in die life from one year to the next."