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Coin doctoring is making a small come back
Zoins
Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
Laura wrote "coin doctoring is making a small come back" back last November.
What is she referring to?
Do you agree or disagree?
2
Comments
She means in context of issues in the coin world, such as coin doctoring, that NGC and PCGS only allowing their slabs in their registries is not a big deal.
Since she is known for fighting coin doctors who move metal, I consider her an expert and agree with her since she has superior knowledge on the subject than I do.
Yet no one seems to be forthcoming with names. Except for PCGS which initiated a lawsuit several years ago.
I love that term, "moving metal". I need to use that more often at work.
I was specifically thinking about the "come back" part. What areas of doctoring are coming back from her point of view.
That would require the ability to understand the operation of her mind.
So you would have to ask her.
what was the result of that lawsuit?
There's nothing in that November article discussing "moving metal" in particular.
I think the issue is probably that no one wants to be sued for slander/defamation if they do throw names around...
Not wise to assume anything while posting on the host forum. I spent a half hour on PACER trying to decipher the federal case. I will leave the interpretation to Sanction if he is willing as Law is not my bailiwick.
Not sure how because she says it so, that is must be so based on her perceived expertise (although I agree with her). I have been to major shows and shockingly seen row upon row of slabbed IHCs that certainly appear to be processed, including Reds and Red Browns that appear most unnatural - to say the least - and IMO doctored. It's really not even shocking anymore and appears almost standard.
Well, just Love coins, period.
There are many more doctors in the shallow end of the numismatic pool then there are in the deep end where Laura swims.
I think that the OP's thread title would serve a more useful purpose for discussion if it started with Is, and ended with a question mark.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Coin doctoring has never left!
Indian Head Cents? Back in the early '90's I could find lots of raw, nice light red brown IHC's, in 3, 4 and 5. Then the price of full reds in slabs jumped, the coin doctors moved in, and now nice light red browns are rare, slabbed or otherwise. But there are lots of pale IHC's in red holders.
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
You know, with all this coin doctoring talk, I took pen to paper last night and did some chemistry. It is really really simple. No wonder these clowns do it. I actually thought it was ridiculously harder than it is.
4Xy + 2z2A + B2 = 2Xy2A + 2z2B
TonerGuy:
Some of the doctors "in the deep end" have very advanced skills.
7 Jaguars:
Yes!
Relatively recent doctoring of Indian cents and Lincolns has been raised in other recent threads on this forum.
: Insider2:
Around 1997, a wave of grade-inflation and coin doctoring started that went on until 2007 or so. Coin doctors 'make a living' or derive a significant portion of their respective incomes by doctoring coins and submitting them to PCGS or NGC. Coin doctoring continued after 2007, but because of educational activities, many collectors were 'on the lookout'! After the PCGS lawsuit against alleged coin doctors and alleged co-conspirators in 2010, there has been much less 'moving of metal,' though this still happens.
Indeed, I have noticed much fewer cases of metal having been moved. Most doctoring since 2010 involves additives to cover or obscure scratches, contact marks and mint defects. Doctors probably keep searching for new substances to use. Heat-assisted AT continues to be a big problem, too.
Also, three major doctors ceased to be involved in the business in recent years, for reasons unrelated to their respective incomes.
The Specter of Coin Doctoring and The Survival of Great Coins
Knowing the names of coin docs won't help much. Unless coin docs can be paired with 'fences' who do retail sales, this information is of little use to the typical collector.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
where there is profit, there will be people wanting it. if you know your series, the doctors can do whatever they want and it does not affect you. when you rely on someone else to know what you should know, well, yes, then you should worry
Information on doctors is useful because it can shame them into no longer doctoring.
Information on fences is useful because it can help one avoid buying doctored coins.
Information on doctors definitely seems to work given the incident with the ANA instructor a few years ago.
I would expect that to be the case. Luckily in my end, the amateurs are much easier to spot and avoid.
'Shame'? Really? That is something in short supply in the business end of the hobby. I know---I have been buying coins for a long time, and have had many private, frank conversations with numerous dealers. How many dealers have been expelled from numismatic organizations? Few. Did LS get anywhere regarding a crusade against coin docs? Not really. Have coin docs taught courses at ANA Summer Seminars? Yes.
There is, sad to say, a problem regarding 'outing' coin docs and their business partners---many (if not most) coin dealers depend on other dealers for a significant fraction of their aggregate business. So it's better to keep one's mouth shut (for legal reasons too), look the other way, and not rock the boat.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
This is one of the paradoxes of the coin hobby. On the one hand, doctoring is bad, but on the other hand, nothing can really be done to stop doctors because they are so important to the hobby.
One question is if everyone likes and protects doctors, why not just say doctoring isn't bad and have all collectors become doctors?
Another is if doctors can teach courses at the ANA Summer Seminar, why not have them teach advanced doctoring techniques?
Or you accept that dipping is doctoring and then assume that almost every dealer and most collectors are doctors. And then its just a matter of level and expertise.
That's not part of the discussion since the PNG definition and top TPGs do not consider dipping to be doctoring.
"Here's a hypothetical question: if everyone likes and protects doctors, why not just say doctoring isn't bad and have all collectors become doctors?"
How soon do you wish the coin market to collapse? I'm being quite serious.
"Here's another: if doctors can teach courses at the ANA Summer Seminar, why not have them teach advanced doctoring techniques?"
Teaching how to DOCTOR a coin and teaching how to SPOT a doctored coin are two very different things. Doctored coins have gotten so well done that they have been getting by professional graders on occasion.
PS: ANA Summer Seminars are open to essentially anyone---collectors, dealers, graders, auction professionals, etc. Sharing that kind of information will not really make collecting any safer for the average collector.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
It's kind of like legalizing marajuana. If you say something is bad but don't do anything about it, what's wrong with saying it isn't bad?
Well, I watched what happened to the coin market when TPG population reports started to appear---the result wasn't pretty. Many coins---particularly gem grade generics---were being marketed as investments. People began to realize that many 'rare' coins were really rather common. There aren't many bragging rights associated with owning common coins, are there? Dollars retreated from the coin market, and this also affected the values of rare coins to varying extents.
If you want to 'legalize' doctored coins, it's best to dump your coin holdings and find another hobby first.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I don't want to legalize doctored coins, but by that question, I am suggesting that protecting doctors is essentially the same thing. Supporting doctors by the ANA and others is implicit approval of doctoring so, if you are going to go that far, why not make it explicit?
There are a few prominent dealers against doctoring. I think we need more of them. However, it may be as you suggest that too many dealers are dependent on doctors. If so, this is something collectors should be aware of.
When the day comes that coin doctoring is no longer fashionable, all of those useless sulfur pens and acetone damaged coins will be worthless.
'"Here's another: if doctors can teach courses at the ANA Summer Seminar, why not have them teach advanced doctoring techniques?"'
Before a collector should expend any effort learning about advanced doctoring techniques, he/she needs to learn about the minting process since the late 18th century and different die marriages (if relevant to one's collecting interests). If collectors of U.S. coins don't really know what the surfaces of indisputably genuine U.S. Mint products look like, there is no point in going further. I am, of course, leaving the AT/NT problems aside, since I think these are more difficult.
There is already a Summer Seminar course that deals with altered and totally counterfeit U.S. coins.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Moving metal and lasering is where the real doctors make hay. Some of the chemistry examples in this thread are child's play.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Wise words from an old Rat........ And if you are buying coins with significant $$ value, buy them with a certification from PCGS. But with copper, I am not confident in TPG's ability to determine AT vs. NT. I think that all copper has been dipped at some time......except for Stewat Blay's of course. Stewart needs to provide a superior grade verification service that guarantees Original Skin........
OINK
OINK, I love your enthusiasm but you are lost about copper and dipping.
Lance
Lance, I have understood most of all of your previous posts on fundamental dipping. There are tow issues involved. Some dipping is to make RB coins RD. Following is my post from another thread where the issue was making coins BLUE.:
I recently suggested on another thread that the coins in the Proskey hoard might also have attained their toning due to a very common commmercial/household cleaner that was predominant at the time of their storage.....Ammonium Hydroxide, which is just a water based solution of NH3. Following is a picture of a piece of copper sheet exposed to NH3 for about 24 hours compared to a piece of the same copper sheet that was not exposed:
After this exposure, I "dipped the sample in acetone and the acetone removed none of the "toning":
I then applied MS70 to a part of the sample piece:
You will see that MS70 will remove the toning wheras the acetone will not. But especialy look at the color of the Q-tip that applied the MS70........a blue much like is observed on toned IHC proofs.
Rick Snow has discounted that "blue" copper can be doctored, but I would not say it impossible. But the above demonstrates that it may clearly be environmental due to a cause not before considered........ammonia. And if Proskey owned a blueprint shop, which smell of NH3 24/7, the result becomes more obvious.
The effect will be more pronounced on PR coin surfaces than the specimens of raw copper I used. Perhaps Stewart Blay might consider running the same test on one of his high end RD dupes????????
OINK
I seem to recall that it was dismissed on procedural grounds (jurisdiction).
Now compare the amount of NH3 fumes in the container with atmospheric levels.
Atmospheric levels today are non-existant. But from 1900 to 1960 the predominant cleaning agent was ammonia. Not only in homes but commercial buildings as well. Could be the coins only got a small dose once a week.......but once a week for 50-80 years is not insignificant.
OINK
>
I respect the fact that you took an experimental approach. If the level of exposure of ammonia fumes in the atmosphere was anywhere close to what was in the chamber for any significant period of time, I think you would have a lot of dead people. Even if you divide the amount by 50-80 (assume constant exposure), that is still a lot of ammonia and I would expect a lot of respiratory issues from the population. If not constant exposure and only in low doses, it remains to be seen whether it would induce significant patination.
To be clear, I don't dispute that there can be naturally toned blue copper.
The chemical process is much like rust accumulating on your garden shovel. It takes years. I am only demonstrating that the appropriate chemical reaction exists, and the resultant color is blue, and by extrapolation ammonia could be the principal reactant in the toning of IHC proofs in the Proskey hoard.
OINK
Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be a jerk.
I work by trade as a hybrid fiber coax technician. Old copper turns blue.
Doctors are the only ones qualified to teach these classes?
Thats not part of your discussion. PNG and top TPGs are not run by nuns. They are run by people who make their living off the industry, therefore they are hardly independent enough to determine what the discussion should be.
If you want to believe that dipping isnt doctoring that is your personal choice. My personal choice is that any alteration to effect the value of the coin and not merely to preserve it is doctoring. The answer doesnt lie a definition it lies in the motive.
It's not that I believe or don't believe dipping is doctoring, it's that I don't think it's useful for this discussion because it distracts from very insidious doctoring like lasers, artificial heads, AT, etc. For example, I think outing doctors that do lasering may be beneficial to the hobby, but I don't think outing those that dip is useful given it's prevalence.
While there is a tendency to want to add dipping to almost every doctoring discussion, it is not what high end doctoring is about.
@Azurescens... "....acetone damaged coins will be worthless." Just a point of clarification... Acetone will NOT damage coins... it does NOT react with metal, only organics. Cheers, RickO
I'm in a position to see lots of coins on a daily basis. You know, people tend to judge what's going on in the world around them based on when they became involved. I've been a professional numismatist for a long, long time...1997, even 1986 (PGCS founded) is like recent history to me. [Not in this particular order] I have seen whizzing, thumbing, Bondo, mercury, polishing, artificial color, dental wax, imitation contact marks, electroplating, micro whizzing, lasers, fake cameos, fake PL's, tooled designs, etc, etc. come on line and then perhaps decrease a little as each new technique was exposed.
Every major TPGS has slabbed fraudulently altered coins in the past. Nevertheless, they are our best protection against alterations. I stand by my original posting. Coins are being doctored at this very minute. Only the skill, knowledge, and equipment of the "doctors" evolves. Nevertheless, the rookie "doctors" must start somewhere so even a freshly thumbed Morgan is commonly seen.
Today I posted a piece on "advanced coin conservation" in another forum. Some troublesome "fixed" spots were removed from a previously dipped Proof quarter w/o leaving evidence of the removal. Is the conservation specialist who held the class a coin doctor? Some would say yes!
A combination of two chemicals in just about every coin shop can turn an Indian cent blue. Years ago, blue Indians were considered "art." Now, for the most part they are desirable! The blue color can be removed extremely easily and the coin returned to brown or red-brown.
I just realized that I need a degree in chemistry to collect coins.
Indeed. I have three degrees in chemistry (BS-MS-PhD), so feel free to borrow one.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I disagree. You may be very knowledgeable and not be fooled; however, markets do not exist in vacuums. When the less knowledgeable become spooked and no longer trust plastic crutches, it can affect liquidity and value of an entire series to include the wholesome coins.