Looks like the Paypal exodus has begun in earnest.

coindeuce · February 23, 2017 7:48PM

Got a email from Lyn Knight Currency Auctions today. No longer accepting PayPig method of payment. Watch for the avalanche !
I got reason to believe that the sleazeBay CEO will regret separating from PayPig.

AUandAG · February 23, 2017 8:14PM

Some of us do not have a real choice....not dealers. Paypig is fine by me.
bob
Are you referring to the thread we had regarding what they do not cover with their guaranty?

coindeuce · February 23, 2017 8:15PM

Here ya go: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/976248/paypal-no-longer-covering-coins-and-paper-money-bullion-investments-as-of-03-29-17-thoughts

quote: We are updating the list of items that are not eligible for Purchase Protection. The updates to the list are:
1) Financial products or investments of any kind.

Inquiries to Customer Service as to: are collectible coins financial products? has been answered as affirmative.

amwldcoin · February 23, 2017 9:15PM

They did for bigger sellers. When things were moving...sales above 10K per month my rate was 2.2%...Now it's 2.9% regardless of my volume. I think they boosted foreign transaction fees as well but not sure.

@MANOFCOINS said:
Why has the fees gone up?

derryb · February 23, 2017 9:26PM

@coindeuce said:
Here ya go: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/976248/paypal-no-longer-covering-coins-and-paper-money-bullion-investments-as-of-03-29-17-thoughts

quote: We are updating the list of items that are not eligible for Purchase Protection. The updates to the list are:
1) Financial products or investments of any kind.

Inquiries to Customer Service as to: are collectible coins financial products? has been answered as affirmative.

If this is correct you still have ebay buyer and seller protection.

coindeuce · February 23, 2017 9:33PM

@derryb said:

@coindeuce said:
Here ya go: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/976248/paypal-no-longer-covering-coins-and-paper-money-bullion-investments-as-of-03-29-17-thoughts

quote: We are updating the list of items that are not eligible for Purchase Protection. The updates to the list are:
1) Financial products or investments of any kind.

Inquiries to Customer Service as to: are collectible coins financial products? has been answered as affirmative.

If this is correct you still have ebay buyer and seller protection.

The eBay buyer and seller protection is only as good as the risk pool of insurance that they are willing to maintain. In the case of PP protection, they have clawed back funds from sellers/buyers. eBay's only alternative to using their self insurance going forward will be to NARU offenders. eBay doesn't have the power to access a member's financial accounts. The clawbacks done by Paypal to date have only been achievable through a mutual agreement with eBay. Not so after March 29.

ricko · February 24, 2017 7:06AM

I am sure there is solid financial data to justify such a decision.... No well run business will tolerate a losing option for long.... Cheers, RickO

Davideo · February 24, 2017 9:26AM

@coindeuce said:
Got a email from Lyn Knight Currency Auctions today. No longer accepting PayPig method of payment. Watch for the avalanche !
I got reason to believe that the sleazeBay CEO will regret separating from PayPig.

I'm confused. You think PayPal's business with go down, yet eBay will regret selling off PayPal? Wouldn't that make eBay glad they cut bait?

EXOJUNKIE · February 24, 2017 9:31AM

PayPal isn't going anywhere and I'm highly skeptical of a mass exodus ... there just aren't any viable alternatives to fill the massive space PayPal currently occupies. JMO.

Davideo · February 24, 2017 9:46AM

@amwldcoin said:
They did for bigger sellers. When things were moving...sales above 10K per month my rate was 2.2%...Now it's 2.9% regardless of my volume. I think they boosted foreign transaction fees as well but not sure.

@MANOFCOINS said:
Why has the fees gone up?

Do you have an account rep? I would try to re-negotiate as I have been successful lately. However, this was not eBay related, I don't know if yours is.

coindeuce · February 24, 2017 12:39PM

@Davideo said:

@coindeuce said:
Got a email from Lyn Knight Currency Auctions today. No longer accepting PayPig method of payment. Watch for the avalanche !
I got reason to believe that the sleazeBay CEO will regret separating from PayPig.

I'm confused. You think PayPal's business with go down, yet eBay will regret selling off PayPal? Wouldn't that make eBay glad they cut bait?

eBay owned PayPal until 2016. I seriously doubt that eBay would have taken the measures that PayPal has, now that they are a separate unconnected business. Unless small scale eBay sellers find a better way to protect themselves without increased overhead (the other merchant processing services permitted presently by eBay), they will dry up. For smaller scale sellers, any alternative to PayPal will be too costly. eBay grew to its monstrous proportions on the backs of grassroots cottage industry sellers, and now they much prefer to host big box widget sellers who can afford to write off their losses due to fraud. Not the case for sellers who use eBay for supplemental income. Ebay has and will continue to evolve in a manner that makes it more and more difficult for small scale sellers to survive in their venue.

steveben · February 24, 2017 1:28PM

wow...just got off the phone with paypal. confirmed coins are no longer covered. guess i won't be using paypal any more. bummer.

derryb · February 24, 2017 4:43PM

Down to ebay only seller protection when it comes to coins. We'll see how this plays out.

StrikeOutXXX · February 24, 2017 5:31PM

@steveben said:
wow...just got off the phone with paypal. confirmed coins are no longer covered. guess i won't be using paypal any more. bummer.

I called as well today, specifically asked about collector coins, collector currency, coins sold as bullion, and silver bars/rounds. The lady confirmed none will be covered by purchase protection. Now,the current purchase protection states:

PayPal Protection for Buyers
PayPal Purchase Protection covers you if you have a problem that you can't work out with your seller. If an item doesn't arrive or shows up significantly different than how the seller described it, we help you get your money back.

So, having some discussion on a Facebook coin group about what that means really. If we buy a coin with PP and it never arrives, and seller won't work with you, are you out? Do you even have an opportunity to file a not received claim, or if the coin is counterfeit, swapped out or otherwise the typical SNAD case, are you just screwed?

This will likely stop much of the dishonest buyers... the ones who abuse the 6 month return via buyers protection, but used that time to try to flip a coin, get it graded at a higher grade, hold bulk silver hoping for a price jump, do the I'll buy it and when I see it in hand, if I don't like it... or it isn't a rare variety I'm hoping for will just return it, etc. That end result is probably good. What likely won't be good, that many are wondering about is what happens if you simply don't get your item, get shipped different/lesser item, counterfeit item, etc. What recourse does buyer have when seller isn't cooperating.

I don't think honest dealers/buyers will be too much at risk, they will likely make good as standard business practices. It's when one of the parties is less than honest where the protection not being there is going to hurt.

Many have stated they will only make PP purchases of coins when backed by credit card, not checking or PP balance to have protection from the CC, but we all know that isn't foolproof. Many are looking to use Google Wallet, Facebook Pay, Apple Pay, Amazon payments, or any the many, many ecommerce solutions better suited for web stores versus 1:1 transaction methods, both avoid the PP 3%+ fees for seller, and get some peace of mind for buyer, but not sure what will provide the same level of protection PP used to.

As mentioned above, eBay has a little influence in disputes as far as sellers not wanting negative feedback, or account closed, but the physical act of eBay reversing payments via PayPal (yes, PP/eBay are different companies now, but the PP user agreement still gives eBay dispute/refund authority on protection claims) but remains unclear how this will work going forward. Outside of eBay, like our BST, or the Facebook Sales Groups, etc, it might get very risky if PP isn't there with protection any longer.

I think I'll still buy with PP from trusted sources, but private sales outside an established eretailer is going to be seriously reviewed, additional pictures asked for, return policies clarified up front, and serious caution taken.

Bigpoppas · February 24, 2017 5:46PM

@coindeuce said:

@Davideo said:

@coindeuce said:
Got a email from Lyn Knight Currency Auctions today. No longer accepting PayPig method of payment. Watch for the avalanche !
I got reason to believe that the sleazeBay CEO will regret separating from PayPig.

I'm confused. You think PayPal's business with go down, yet eBay will regret selling off PayPal? Wouldn't that make eBay glad they cut bait?

eBay owned PayPal until 2016. I seriously doubt that eBay would have taken the measures that PayPal has, now that they are a separate unconnected business. Unless small scale eBay sellers find a better way to protect themselves without increased overhead (the other merchant processing services permitted presently by eBay), they will dry up. For smaller scale sellers, any alternative to PayPal will be too costly. eBay grew to its monstrous proportions on the backs of grassroots cottage industry sellers, and now they much prefer to host big box widget sellers who can afford to write off their losses due to fraud. Not the case for sellers who use eBay for supplemental income. Ebay has and will continue to evolve in a manner that makes it more and more difficult for small scale sellers to survive in their venue.

Great post !!
I agree with this post 1000% as an eBay seller of mostly collectible items since the beginning.
It's only gotten worse every single year as a seller.
Buyers can continually rejoice, but sellers are always left at the risk of selling through mail order delivery

derryb · February 24, 2017 6:05PM

Will be interesting to see the response of the big bullion sellers on ebay. CC only?

roadrunner · February 24, 2017 6:14PM

@derryb said:
Down to ebay only seller protection when it comes to coins. We'll see how this plays out.

Good Look with that. Ebay only seller protection of an indisputable fraudulent auction cost me $2K. Ebay didn't want to lift a finger. Said it was my problem that their 100% FeedBack seller listed an auction for a coin they didn't even own, copied another dealer's auction from 2 months earlier, never shipped anything, and deposited my check just fine, then wired those funds to a 3rd party. Seller admitted they never shipped anything to me, just fronted the auction. Ebay disappeared and told me to stop bothering them. So this stuff can happen again?

coindeuce · February 24, 2017 6:24PM

"Down to ebay only seller protection when it comes to coins. We'll see how this plays out."
It will likely play out like this:
SNAD and INR claims, which eBay will now solely carry the indemnity for, will outpace the buyer/seller protection risk pool to the tune that seller fees will ratchet up exponentially. Bank on it.

Mr Lindy · February 24, 2017 6:49PM

Awhile back I bought 2 counterfeit coins in slabs. Instead of looking to ebay or paypal for relief I called my creditcard issuer. My cc refunded the $3200 thirty days after the charges appeared on my bill. I wonder if my cc company took the $3,200 loss or if they backcharged ebay or paypal ?

MedalCollector · February 25, 2017 5:20AM

@coindeuce said:

"Down to ebay only seller protection when it comes to coins. We'll see how this plays out."
It will likely play out like this:
SNAD and INR claims, which eBay will now solely carry the indemnity for, will outpace the buyer/seller protection risk pool to the tune that seller fees will ratchet up exponentially. Bank on it.

I wonder how much of an impact the Coins & Paper Money category really has. Will there be so many new claims within this one segment to "exponentially" drive up seller fees for all of eBay?

As a collector, I would be more concerned that this will scare medium-sized coin dealers from selling their coins on eBay.

I guess coin dealers should start selling more medals to protects themselves!

VanHalen · February 25, 2017 5:34AM

This is the first I've heard of this change. Thank you for the heads up.

TopographicOceans · February 25, 2017 5:43AM

I think I'll be sending coins I want to sell to Great Collections instead of listing them on eBay.

CascadeChris · February 25, 2017 7:00AM

Wow. This is almost unbelievable. It has the potential of blowing up in PayPal's face and effecting eBay as well. It will be interesting to see how this will play out this year.

I have a bunch of nice Morgan toners consigned to me at Long Beach that I was going to throw on eBay but I think I'll give the BST here a go first as most know I'm an honest guy. I don't really see it effecting sales from well known members on BST here. It will just cause more caution to be employed against newer member sellers. It will have the added benefit of price reduction for buyers though because all transactions can now be done via FF. There's shot #1 in their own foot!

cmerlo1 · February 25, 2017 2:35PM

Just passing this along:

My wife emailed them about this on Thursday. She got an automated response and emailed them again yesterday. Here is PayPal's response:

Hello Kelly Merlo,

Thanks for writing in again.
I completely understand how one might consider the purchase of collectible coins or paper money as a personal investment and I would be more than happy to assist you with this. The purchase of collectible coins or paper money would still be covered under our purchase protection policy and you would be able to dispute the purchase if the item was significantly not as described or if the item never arrives.
Thank you for continuing to reach out and work with us, we really appreciate the opportunity to help a customer!
If you would like any further assistance, Kelly, feel free to respond to this email or call us back at a time convenient to you! You can reach us at 1-888-221-1161 M-F (8:00 AM - 1:00 AM EST) Sa-Su (9:00 AM - 11:00 PM EST).
Sincerely,
Luke
PayPal Customer Solutions
PayPal

Apparently phone support is saying the opposite, based on the posts here, so I'm not sure who to believe at this point.

CascadeChris · February 25, 2017 4:55PM

Well this needs to be cleared up. I tend to believe that they still will honestly. Its just crazy to think they would seriously shoot themselves in the foot like this. Like I said, it will create a significant loss of transactions that would otherwise generate a very high level of return for them and for those still willing, they would just do FF since there would be no incentive to do regular and pay the 3%. Its a double whammy.

knightem · February 27, 2017 2:41PM

I called PayPal yesterday and I was told to send an email. I explained the situation and asked them to clarify the statement. I gave them links to this thread and the other one on the boards because there were conflicting reports. I received an email earlier that says this:
"PayPal has not changed the policy for collectibles, they are still going to be covered for both buyers and sellers."

Looks like the Paypal exodus has begun in earnest.

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