Options
Dealer tactics to buy numismatics unreasonably
logger7
Posts: 8,078 ✭✭✭✭✭
What are fair deals between coin dealers vs. unfair tactics? Shouldn't dealers always tell the truth when buying, rather than trying to get them at prices that are wins for both the buyer and the seller? I don't like the term "rip" that I hear some dealers use about taking advantage of unknowledgeable sellers.
Should dealers offer contracts based on what coins will be worth when they come back from the grading service instead of buying numismatics at grade levels below where they are likely to grade?
0
Comments
Dealers who are ANA members are supposed to offer refunds on their coins.
If you purchased a coin and aren't happy with it, you should contact the dealer for a return.
I don't know any salesman that always tells the truth. There is something called puffing in sales. It's up to the buyer to do their research before buying.
I never heard a dealer use the term rip, but I've heard many collectors say it on their purchases.
Yes, it probably would be fairer to make offers contingent on grade. I'd bet many sellers don't realize how variable the grading is. I recall 4 very rare gold coins coming into one of my local B&M's about 10 years ago. They were bought raw as MS62's. They all slabbed out as 64's. That was a difference of $30,000 to $90,000. I'd have no problem doing that.
Many sellers might get skittish knowing that grading could be that variable. It's like getting 2 or 3 appraisals for the same piece of art. I knew one dealer back in 1988 who would offer other dealers prices on the raw coins they had based on the grades they might receive. He'd give them 64, 65, and 66 prices. The dealer was a very weak grader. So this method was ideal for him. And he was very successful at that time. He bought a ton of coins. The dealers that can predict the TPG grades would want none of this if they can persuade a seller to sell outright w/o contingencies.
I think dealers "should" bend over backwards to make the fairest deal possible for collectors, no matter how easy it may be to pick them off. Yet, the more you try to help, the more it seems to work against you in the end. The deals float away. And other dealers who talk a good story just rip those same people royally. No good deed goes unpunished. I guess that means sellers like to hear a "good story" or "good rap." As that makes them feel good and at ease.....even if they are being set up for the kill shot. Telling them the truth often works against you, especially once they hear they have something really valuable. So many dealers just don't tell them. Easier to buy a $30,000 group of 4 coins than an $80,000 group. And when a widow is offered $10,000 for their husband's collection and passes. What do you think she'll do when the next guy jumps that offer to $50,000? Why sell it of course. That's a great deal. Though in this case (a real story), the collection was worth $500K or more. That surely should have been done on a contingency basis, auction, or something. What a shame.
One time a local dealer wanted me to submit a gem Barber quarter for him that was bought from the mint in 1893 and kept in a mint wrapper for 95 yrs. It was a monster blue gem. We both knew it would go MS65 or better. It came back NGC MS65. That was great for me because I wanted to buy and resubmit it again with zero downside risk. It looked every bit a 66. As we began to negotiate he asked me, "do you think this could ever go 66, should we resubmit?" I couldn't lie as we had a 10 year relationship....nor would I . So I sent the coin back to NGC and indeed, it went NGC MS66. That "cost" me $2,500 in profit. As it was, I made 10%/$500 on the coin when I flipped it for $6500. It was better than not getting it. I'm pretty sure that dealer paid no more than $300-$1,000 for it....lol. From my own experiences, most dealers go for the jugular every time. Any arrangements that don't lead to more profits are usually removed from the deal. Just what I've witnessed 90% of the time.
For example, you bought an 1800s proof gold eagle in a PCGS spot removed holder, pr details. It gets sent through NGC where conservation is able to get off the surface issue and it graded well into the Unc. grades, dcam. So the collector's family who had saved the coin for generations sold it to a dealer who made 4X on the coin within 2 weeks. You could say the dealer took the risk, but if he bought it under pr60 money, maybe he has some responsibility to the person who sold it to him.
"Rip" was common lingo among many dealers I dealt with over the years. Since the TPG is often needed to confirm how big a rip you got, it's a term often used by those submitting coins. And those Rips usually came from buying from other dealers....not the public. I usually didn't associate much with dealers who just ripped the public. That's bad stuff. That usually indicated they had little skills of there own. Example. A friend of mine "ripped" an AU 1861 $5 Lib from a local dealer for $500. They just couldn't grade for beans. Weak strike was always wear. The coin graded MS63 and was flipped for $6,000. Another dealer sold him a 1902 raw Barber half for MS63 money ($1,000?). It came back PCGS MS66. And it CAC'd too. Sold it for $11,000. In those situations, the term "rip" was common lingo. If a dealer can't protect themselves, they deserve to be ripped. Consider those same dealers are buying those same coins from the public for even less money....the blind ripping the blind.
Too funny, but the above dealer I reference, his nickname is the "Ripper." He's had it since before 2004. And that's because these absurd deals routinely find their way to his feet. He doesn't seek them out. And those other dealers literally give away their coins. He's supposed to say no? It never happens to me, and probably never to any of you either. And I suspect part of the reason is, that other dealers routinely come out with low ball offers, that everyone ends up seeking this other guy out as he'll pay more. I guess ANY single dealer offering top dollar to the locals, ends the gravy train for all of them. It's an interesting topic to discuss to say the least.
If you educate those guys, it only means you get less coins, and they get more profits. Their customers will continue to be swindled in any event. Unless you can force them out of business, all you can do is make the best of this bad situation.....Rip the other dealer.
But if the dealer lies in buying from the public or other dealers he not operating on kosher terms. If he says he operates on 20-30% buy/sells and then makes whopping short term profits then he isn't being straight. Also I've seen a lot of dealers who use the amnesia of time, putting coins in their "personal collection" they have ripped, and then deciding to sell them after the memory has faded at a propitious time. Almost everyone has their secrets.
I fully agree. But it's not the real world. In the case of my 1893 Barber 25c above, the 95 yr owners probably made a $1,000 max on that coin. The dealer who owned it 1-2 months made $5,000. I made $500. The guy after me made at least $500.
A better example is the James Stack 1901-s Gem barber quarter. It sold for a record $80,000+ in 1980, selling to dealers Bob Rose and Ron Iskowitz (RenRob). (Dave Akers bought it for $5500 out of the 1975 Stack sale and found a buyer under $9K iirc) Bad timing though for RenRob at the 1980 market peak. They couldn't get out from under that coin to around 1988 as prices moved up. When they brought the coin out again I think it got slabbed as MS66. The coin was bought by dealer Rick Sear for $125,000 iirc. Rick resubmitted it and got a PCGS MS67....flipping it for $225K or more. Who made more here? Was it fair? I mean the first guys got it graded...and accepted the MS66 grade which was about as high as any MS Barber quarter could get back then....except the monsters. That coin sold in the same $250K-$280K range in the past 5 years or so. So it's ironic that in the entire history of that coin from James Stack to the latest owner, the most money was made by Rick, in a 2 month period. How about them apples?
I know of a dealer whose m.o. is to offer to submit coins presented to him for evaluation by owners who are not familiar enough with subtle problems on coins (without disclosing those potential problems to the owner). When the coins come back in details only or Genuine holders, he persuades the disheartened owners to sell the coins cheap, and after closing the transaction, conserves or doctors the coins, resubmits and quite often gets straight grades for obscene profits.
I'm certain it happens to a much greater extent than the Dudley Do-Rights of numismatics would ever believe or admit to.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
I don't know of too many dealers that outright lie to the public, except those few outright crooks in the minority. On the other hand, I'm sure even the best dealers are very careful to not reveal anything they don't really need to. Keeping the seller clueless is not the same as outright lying to them. My process has always been I will answer to the best of my knowledge any questions a potential buyer might have, even a dealer. If they want to know the full grading history, or if I upgraded it, I'll tell them. It shouldn't make a huge difference. I always have the option of saying I'd prefer not to tell you that. They can pass or play. Clueless sellers don't even know the right questions to ask. There's no reason to lie to them.
Touchy subject. What's a hobby for me is an occupation for dealers - so we probably see things differently from the start. I have no problem with a dealer making a nice profit or even a huge profit when they assume significant risk in a deal. What I think is fair and what a dealer thinks is fair can be very different, even when we're both acting ethically. Not all situations will result in a "meeting of the minds."
It really isn't all that hard for people to get at least a rudimentary understanding of how the coin market works. A Redbook, an independent appraisal, and a bit of digging around on the Internet would consume maybe a weekend. People who sell without doing any research almost deserve a random result.
Finally, those who die without leaving specific instructions for their heirs are doing them a great disservice. It's unpleasant to consider, but are your instructions written down in a safe place???
Yes, but even doing the above rudimentary digging, might only get you to within a factor of 2X-4X what the coins could be worth, assuming they are decent collector-like coins, not junk 90% silver....as technical grading is the real decider on final value. Most appraisals I've seen, on most collectibles, border on inaccurate up to useless.
As I explained above, that widow apparently did a rudimentary search for that pre-internet period. She saw 2 maybe 3 dealers total for offers. And ended up with 10c on the dollar. No doubt had they seen several more dealers or went to a coin show, reality might have popped out. I might add, that the dealer who bought the coins, was/is PNG and quite "well-thought" of over the years. I couldn't have slept at night if I had done that to any collector. I'd have been happy to work for 3-5% + slab/postage fees and worked my butt off for them.
I guess I'm assuming that once people do a little research it will become obvious that they should at least consider other options than dumping everything with a local dealer. Wishful thinking maybe.
Very true that no good deed goes unpunished. Try to be a good guy and people will assume you're up to something. Sweet-talk 'em with a forked tongue and they'll walk away happy, but poorer.
The same problems happen with collections of anything - firearms, comics, etc. At least there is such a thing as third-party grading when it comes to coins, assuming you get enough knowledge to make use of it.
Quoting RoadRunner:
"Yet, the more you try to help, the more it seems to work against you in the end. The deals float away. And other dealers who talk a good story just rip those same people royally. No good deed goes unpunished."
How very very true. I always tried to treat my customers fairly and with integrity----but would get schemed out of deals by rip-off dealers, one in particular who had done his ripping for years and years, yet had a slavish following.
They would line up to get bent over. And smile while being violated.
I will never figure it out.
Win-win results should be thought out carefully. As sharing windfall profits can get messy. If the seller is wealthy just looking to dispose of someone's collectibles, it is different than a grieving lower income family. Morality can be tailor made for the people involved. What's fair? Hard to say but the dealer needs to try to make an honest living and sleazy ones should lose business, online reviews may help.
"Morality can be tailor made for the people involved. "
Huh? NO
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I am amazed at some of the offers out there. At LB this week someone asked me on a GSA dollar the value. or my buy price. He said he had 7 of the same date. It was an 1878 so I said 500. He showed me more coins he thought were worth a dollar, all Morgans and silver eagles so I gave him prices on those.
He came back yesterday, the GSA's were different dates not at all 1878 so the rest were common so I said again gave him prices.
He then said he was at a local SoCal show a couple days ago. Was offered 65 for the 1878. Just amazing. He will be back in June with the widow he was helping to sell the coins.
When you beat someones offers by multiples over another offer, you can be sure you will get referrals. The widow is a CPA to busy to come to the show this time of year, that is the type of referral person I want.
Offering 65 for something worth 500 not only is just unethical, but a very short sided business practice. You cannot cultivate a business on one and done transactions. Not to mention just how bad it is for the hobby.
While it's sad c collectors ripped selling to a dealer collectors rip dealers as well and even brag about it here.
Basically he who has knowledge has the advantage.
I like tight buy/sell spreads as an alternative to digital and paper investments. When the buy/sells are large there is something wrong. You read of people getting rips off ebay on badly imaged items that end up being much better and you wonder where the stuff came from? Was it lost or stolen? And dealers can always say "no" to a transaction with questionable people, they don't want to have to answer to the cops later for items without clear title.
I didn't mean that people can play God but rather that you have to discern what is going on to know how to handle it. I would not support those dealers who size up the seller to see what they can get away with. On the other hand if sellers don't care about getting top dollar you can't make them.
You cannot cultivate a business on one and done transactions. Not to mention just how bad it is for the hobby.
Some do that quite successfully. I've watched some of them over 40 years. My own experiences is that the majority of B&M's I have worked with over the years, that is their general mind set....one and done. Many don't even care if you bring back the coins they sold you in the past. In many cases they don't even want them back...and couldn't afford to pay you a fair price because their next purchase from a fresh "mark" will be at a much lower %cost. The PNG dealer I mentioned above had/has a very long and lucrative coin career....28 yrs since that widow-maker deal above. As Mannie-Gray said above, the sheeple will usually flock to the very places they should be passing by. And harder you tell the truth, the more they question if you're "up to something."
I strongly feel that many B&M coin dealers thrive on the one and done business model. They will continue to get multiple transactions from their customers until those people figure out the truth...usually when they bring something back for an offer, or take it to other dealers for an opinion. I cringe when I read around that some collectors have never brought any of their coins to other dealers for offers, or even challenged their own dealer with a repurchase. That's when the rubber meets the road. At least the TPG slab of today can often keep you within the realm of "only" suffering a 50% loss from the get go.
I could write a book on dealer tactics that have been used on me....but too few would believe it. My 2 favorite of all time involved bringing back coins to the same selling dealers for offers.
"I didn't sell you that coin." (the coin in question was a VF 1799 bust dollar - very original - hard to forget when you might only see one of these every year in any local dealer's inventory).
"I don't want that back, it's your problem now." (raw 4 figure coin came back body bagged for AT). I'm a big boy and realized this was going to be my hit. But, I challenged the dealer "nicely" and said I'd like to sell it back, can you do anything? All I got was resistance. Clearly, there was no possible deal, no 80-90% buy back/restocking, no trade for other material less a restock fee, that the dealer would even consider. I got stuck with it, and that was now my problem. Took my 20% loss when I sold it. That's fine. But, I also didn't have to deal with this guy any further. Had the tables been reversed, I'd have felt terrible stiffing someone else with a problem coin bought as "ok." I'd have worked out some type of deal....certainly giving them a credit towards other items in inventory. That dealer is a very respected, long time national dealer that most here would recognize. I don't think the 1 and Done philosophy is a rare as you think.
In both these cases 1-2 year relationships were severed early on....which was a negative for BOTH of us. I probably missed out on some good coins that could have been. Nothing is gained when relationships are ended.
"I would not support those dealers who size up the seller to see what they can get away with."
I started collecting coins more than 50 years ago, and have dealt with dealers face to face, by correspondence, and online. MOST dealers will size up the seller to see what they can get away with in a face-to-face transaction. When selling, even more dealers will size up the buyer to see what they can get away with. There have been times when I literally laughed at dealers when their initial verbal offers or sales prices were preposterous. In one case, a dealer who later became an ANA president came down by 2/3 after he realized I wasn't a rube. There are dealers who occasionally post here who have done precisely what you are complaining about.
Being a dealer is tough, especially when the market is down and people aren't buying much. However, being a collector is tough too. For decades, there have been comments about beginning collectors having to 'pay their dues.' In other words, tolerate being taken advantage of. When there is money to be made, and the guy making the money usually does so by having greater knowledge than the other guy, don't expect Marquess of Queensberry rules to hold. There is unfortunately a dirty undercurrent in the business end of the hobby; this does end up driving some collectors out.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
" I cringe when I read around that some collectors have never brought any of their coins to other dealers for offers, or even challenged their own dealer with a repurchase. That's when the rubber meets the road."
THIS
Many collectors fail to occasionally sell some of their pieces. Buying is only half of the financial part of collecting. You can 'buy right' (good prices, nice coins) and then get creamed when you make bad decisions having to do with selling.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
What's missing here is that one of them is a full time professional making a living off the public with their expertise, whether real or imaginary. The public assumes this person to be a bonafide expert. The collector has no such public persona or standing. Whatever a collector might "rip" from a dealer only magnifies how said dealer must have ripped the original seller even worse. Someone was going to bag that rip even if the collector didn't, probably another dealer on a buying trip. Of course the collector has a right to brag, they just beat a full time professional who spends 8-10 hours every day of their lives, 6-7 days a week, living and breathing coins who on a daily basis sharpens their skills buying and selling with other dealers. That's the equivalent of a Masters degree or PhD over several years. Now if said dealer posted a disclaimer that all potential customers could read, then I might give them a pass when they "inadvertently" rip the public.
"Disclaimer: We don't know crap about rare coin varieties, splitting hairs between high grade coins, altered surfaces, problem coins, or even many other areas of numismatics like colonials, territorials, paper money, exonumia, and patterns. I have to buy 1-2 grades lower than I really think on anything non-slabbed to leave plenty of room for any mistakes I might make in my appraisal. When it comes to slabs, I have to assume they are all very low end for the grade and will pay accordingly. When selling to my customers I assume everything is the highest possible grade and quality it could ever be...just in case it might be. Our policy is not to leave any money on the table or to ever risk taking a loss on any single coin. Losses are for collectors, not dealers. You might only end up getting 10c on the dollar in areas where I am deficient or have low demand for those items. In those areas where I have considerable expertise, you could end up getting up to 75% for the value of your coins. If you have well worn silver or gold coins I will try to buy them as bullion whenever I can, preferably while not even looking at them closely other than to verify they are made of 90% gold and silver...so I can later claim I had no idea any of them were better dates or types worth much more. Thank you for visiting the Ideal Coin Shop. How may we help you today?"....of course this is all imaginary. And I've been on both sides of the table.
The 'Ideal Coin Shops' in CA, UT, NV, and AZ that I have been to make most of their money trading bullion-related items. Numismatic collectibles are bought and then mostly wholesaled out to other dealers. Anything that a dealer doesn't think he can sell in a month or two will likely be taken to Long Beach to sell to another dealer. What will the collector-seller receive in such cases? Low wholesale, which may seem 'unfair'. Such is the reality of the coin business.
An AZ dealer, whom I like very much, does post a disclaimer on a wall behind one of his display cases:
"$5 Charge for Whining".
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Bottom line; do your homework BEFORE you bring your coins to market. There's a big worldwide interweb out there so sellers (amateurs or pros) have no excuse.
This is a REAL tired subject. Are people really too lazy these days to look out for themselves?
Just my eversohumble opinion.
Cheers
Bob
>
Should one expect every collector/coin buyer to be a grading and doctoring/authentication expert? I certainly don't. Doing the homework just posted will get you into a very wide ball park where the value of your coins could easily vary by multiples. The less than 1% of the hobby that comes here knows what to do. It's the other 99% that is probably in over their heads and need help to figure it out. Most don't get that help, even making an attempt at said homework. Many times, even bigger and well known dealers don't know what stuff is really worth...until after they've sold it and seen it flipped a few times before landing on Joe Collector for oodles more money. I don't call it a TIRED subject, because newbies enter this market every day. TIRED for you and me....not for them. It takes a lot of time to do this homework. It's not like new or used car shopping where you can do it in a day. I feel for our newbs. Some reach out to us by PMs when they first show up. I think most don't though.
" Many times, even bigger and well known dealers don't know what stuff is really worth...until after they've sold it and seen it flipped a few times before landing on Joe Collector for oodles more money."
Yup. I have received emails from dealers, moaning that they sold me items for too little money.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
@RR:
While I agree with you that it's tired to you and me, and I also feel compassion for the newbs (I'm more than happy to provide guidance) it seems as though they want the Q&D answer rather than do a little homework. Give a man a fish, etc.
Additionally, if the advice you dispense doesn't work out to the satisfaction of the neophyte, the next thing you know, you're the next subject of one of their many rants to follow. I've seen it (both on the forum and elsewhere) and have been the subject of it, no matter how many times you preface your advice with all the necessary warnings. I will admit, I don't see this on the forum as much as I used to.
I once was asked for my opinion on a coin by an acquaintance. He was interested in it. I advised him against it as the obverse was obviously tooled. His friend bought it, submitted it and it came back in a 64 holder. I was torched for that. By the way, the holder was Accugrade; nuff said there.
I guess my rant was more about people wanting everyone else to do their homework and not take any of the responsibility.
Cheers
Bob
"This is a REAL tired subject. Are people really too lazy these days to look out for themselves?"
MAYBE 5% of the coin collectors out there will break even when they sell. The rest will end up in red ink.
I have been in coin shops in CA and AZ when older collectors brought in collections to sell. In each case, the seller had 'invested' what was a significant sum for him. In each case, they did not understand what they were buying and bought overgraded or altered coins. Painful to see this.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
We are talking about human nature and business ethics, where clearly we encounter the entire of spectrum of "animals in the zoo".
In my experience, many of the older trusted dealers near me have retired, leaving the sharks, who hope to snag the next sucker who walks in. They get absolutely none of my business; and worse, I no longer stop in to hear their take on collecting.
In my one inheritance situation, my family and I had to divide the coins left in my grandfather's estate. We paid a very nice fee to his favored dealer to assess their values, indicating that we would not be selling any. Nearly 30 years later, we are all content with how evenly distributed it worked out.
It's all too confusing. Maybe this is too simple, but it's how I roll; if you see a coin and you like it, and you have the money to buy it, then buy it. Don't worry about who did what to whom or who paid x amount to y for whatever reason and what they're selling it to you for whatever their thinking is. Just buy the da#mn thing and move along. Enjoy what you have while you have it and always remember that the dealer has to eat too. Just like you do. Wheww.
I don't think I have offered anything to a dealer in over 15 years what with ebay and taking tables at shows. I had my share of bad experiences too but there is no reason to whine about that in a public forum, a lot of it was part of the learning process in buying and selling (tuition). I have had raw coin purchases come back in body bags (nothing over $100) or at a lower grade and knew better than to mess with big ticket material buying it raw. I simply wrote off the loss against the business if the items sold later on were at a loss (I think a couple even made money) and moved on like a grownup.
Bottom Line: I like to buy PCGS Coins and if needed willresearch them in Coin Facts (which can be done from my phone).
A local dealer BnM told me once that basically if your buying from the person who amassed the collection, you'll never offer enough to buy it and if it's a buy from the person who inherited it, then any number gets it done.
I was set up at a table a couple shows ago in Las Vegas next to a dealer with a sign on his table,
"I ripped off the last guy so I could give you a good deal."
My Ebay Store
"unreasonably" is a subjective term. Seasoned buyers must know that for the most part, the dealer had to pay for the coin, mark it up enough to be able to move it and make a profit. The seller should know that if they go to any dealer, that same process will work against you.
A seasoned buyer should also know that for the most part, most of the coins they buy from a dealer will not sell at auction, here on the BST boards, on Ebay, or anywhere really, for the same price the buyer paid. They will sell for less, sometimes much less.
Coin collecting is a nice way to enjoy little pieces of art and to turn thousands of dollars into hundreds.
My experience is that the specialized dealers on the bourse floor that know their area give the most honest prices. These folks also will tell me when they don't want a coin and then refer me to another honest dealer that will. But without spending multiple shows on the bourse buying, and then selling, it is probably hard to get that knowledge on whom to sell to..... So just walking up to any dealer to sell a coin to anywhere, any venue, is a crap shoot. Those who don't do their diligent research, for what ever reason............
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Although it was a small deal, I was checking inventory at a dealer's table, when person showed up with a lot of state quarter rolls. Yes, then market is dead. The dealer looked them over, said he paid (do not remember exactly) but 20 - 25% back of what he sold them for, yada yada, threw numbers all over the place, and paid the guy. When he left, the dealer was GLOATING how most of the rolls were bought below face value. True, if he was selling a $10 roll for $12, and went 20% back, so it was $9.60 or lower. Needless to say, there was nothing he had that I was interested in anymore.
I generally agree with roadrunner's suggestion that dealers with low grading skill are the most likely to perpetrate the rip, and perhaps quite by accident. They can't tell the difference between an MS63 and an MS66, so do you really think they are ever going to pay MS66 money for a raw coin, or an undergraded MS65 in a slab? Collectors and other dealers know enough not to sell their raw coins to these "clueless grader" guys, but the general public does not.
The other type of dealer who "rips" someone is the rare person who maliciously intends to buy every coin for as little as possible. In their book, ethical = stupid. This person buys coins with a mindset that would be very impressive in a game of Texas Holdem poker, but has no place in numismatics. The intent is to harm the uninformed seller as badly as possible by deception or otherwise. I know exactly one dealer who operates this way. They've been in business over 40 years because they make a lot of money at the expense of unassuming victims. Thankfully, very few dealers have such a predatory outlook- but don't assume that they will go out of business any time soon, because it makes money.
I talked to a dealer at Long Beach about a potential purchase that for me would be my "biggest" coin to date. This is something that I know does not usually come in nice condition and even ugly ones sell ain the five-figure range. He sees a nice example of this particular issue in my grade range maybe once a year and he's a well-known specialist in the series. He had one example at his table that I looked at. I'm sure he's positioned to make a decent profit when he sells it.
He then proceeded to tell me why I didn't want this particular coin, how it wouldn't be right for what I'm trying to accomplish, described the issues with it, and said he would keep me in mind when the right one shows up. The whole thing felt like two people having a grownup conversation. Come to think of it, quite a few dealers are like this once you develop a working relationship. Finding them and formulating my naughty/nice list is an ever-evolving process.
Interesting and informative thread.... Not being a seller of coins, I do a lot of research before I buy coins - mostly - and usually get a reasonable deal. Sometimes I have knowingly overpaid....In the past, people have frequently brought me coins to ask about value.... Being honest can really hurt. I have had two occasions where individuals were convinced I was lying (since the guy on TV said it was a great investment and valuable). Even when showing them the book, they were not convinced. Neither one would even speak to me again... I think part of that is out of embarrassment that realization they were hoodwinked had sunk in. I was not trying to buy their coins ... specifically told them I was not interested prior to giving them the information. Some of my special coins are set aside for proper disposal when I am gone. The rest will likely pass down to my uninterested heirs.
Cheers, RickO
Great story @BryceM .
Although not that high of a price, my retired mentor dealer would do the same for me. Steer me away from certain coins that wanted that he had for sale. Always appreciated that.
As far as the OP's question about dealers tactics, I notice the poker face. But I guess that's not an unfair tactic.
I understand they shouldn't light fireworks when you offer something nice but some are really-really good at the expressionless look.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I knew a dealer that never paid more than 63 or 64 money because the greysheet didn't go any higher.
One of my local dealers who was gner> @WildIdea said:
When of my local dealers was clueless and could probably only differentiate a 62 from a 68. Anything else in between was a crap shoot. If it was perfect, he might figure it was a gem....lol. One time a set of matte proof $2-1/2 Indians came into his store. I don't know if it was the owner or an heir bringing them in. He offered AU/BU money for each one of them, approx $150-$250 per coin. Even an "heir" was smart enough to figure out that they shouldn't be sold. They walked out. When one of my dealer friends asked him why he let that deal walk out the door he said, "if I can't buy them cheap at my price, I don't want them."
That B&M was the scene of many shark feedings over they years. The owner passed away a couple years ago after 30 yrs in business. One time a raw AU Bechtler walked in. The people/dealers in assembly that day were all leaning towards fake. Offers of $200-$500 or so were tossed about just for the gold. The shop owner called in another dealer to take a look. 30 minutes later he saw it and said it could be real. He took the coin, had PCGS grade it (AU-55 and real), got an offer from Heritage ($20,000-22,000), and then returned to the store to review with the owner a month later. End result, the owner said he'd think about it, walked out of the store with his new found treasure never to return. The dealer got stiffed for the grading fees and his time and effort. You can't make this stuff up. And that's why many dealers just rather do the "rip" coin big dollar coins don't walk. They love it when their competitors give ridiculous buy prices because they can add 20-30% and still rip them royally.
I remember the late Gar Travis telling me about when he worked for a shop where the owner wouldn't offer a reasonable amount on a numismatic item. So Gar took it upon himself as working for him to talk to the customer in the parking lot making a proper offer or information. I have heard that getting straight shooters in trouble as the manager doesn't like getting questioned.
I don't think any one can buy coins or a collection for the right price. You will over pay or under pay some will be happy some will not. Every one who SELLS or BUYS coins should know about coins. There is so much to look at when your buying or selling no one is making you sell to them and no one is holding a gun to your head to buy from them "YOU" or "THEY" need to make that decision. This happens in all industries, YOU or THEY need to do their home work, Don't blame others for your or their laziness. Do your home work before SELLING or BUYING or it's their or your fault and no one else's.
Hoard the keys.
I am really a part time dealer so for me if a nice coin comes my way or something rare from an unknowable person. I always recommend getting the coin certified and graded by PCGS. Not that I cannot grade but I like a second opinion and so does the client usually. Then when I get it back ( I always offer to submit for them) I will make an offer. My offer will be less grading fees. If it is not accepted I charge the grading fee. I don't know if full time dealers have that luxury some need to buy and turn quickly I think...
I have no problem with dealers making a killing as I don't work for free but I hate hearing on EVERY coin I am interested in how they had to overpay for the coin. Then you got the 10 percent claimers except the buy offers given don't bear that out.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"