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Is the 'greying' of America good for numismatics?
Desert Moon
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We hear it all the time, collectors are getting older on average and everyone seems concerned about this as there is not enough YNs for numismatics to thrive as well in the future. But we are having more and more senior people in the US as well, because of multiple reasons we live longer, and as the baby boom generation ages, well there you have it. So I would throw out here that the 'greying' of America means there are more people with more expendable income, potentially good for numismatics......... Whadya think?
Best, SH
My online coin store - https://desertmoonnm.com/
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Back when I was a YN it was only me and my best friend (both around 12-years old at the time) who were younger than perhaps 50-years old in our coin club of approximately 40-folks. The larger shows we went to, when we could go, had a similar age cohort. Many years later when I attended our local coin club gatherings I was in my mid-30s and was easily the youngest person in attendance. It doesn't prove anything, but this hobby-industry seems to have for quite a while tilted toward an older, more affluent population.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
No way is it good for numismatics.
The demographics are horrible - just go to a coin show and look around. It looks like the lobby of an assisted living facility.
Youngsters just don't care about rare coins.
Dealer-to-dealer sales account for most transactions.
The principal way to profit from a rare coin is to crack it out and get an upgrade, perhaps with a little doctoring in between.
The grading services feed off the crackout game, adding a bit of gradeinflation to sweeten the pot.
All of the above motivate stalwart collectors to curtail coin buying and consider selling.
As aging collectors die, their collections will be dumped on the market.
To suggest that this greying generation will fuel the market by buying is pure folly IMO.
The principal events that could rescue the numismatic market are a flight to hard assets caused by inflation and/or a spike in precious metal values.
I agree. Keep on the Sunnyside.
As I've said many time before---Coin collectors/investors are and always have been an older demographic. There are plenty of YNs out there who will become more serious and active, as they age and become better earners with good careers and after they start families, etc.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I disagree.
The next generations are not composed of collectors that started by filling Whitman folders from circulation, joined coin clubs in school and watched coin values soar it the 60s, 70s and 80s.
Heck, the younger generations shun use of cash and generally look upon coins as an anachronistic nuisance that soon will become obsolete.
There just isn't much money now for the mid-range coins among those collectors who were involved in that sector of the hobby supporting most of the classic coin prices. Even the high end range of collectible coins is having trouble maintaining support at times. The real interest seems to be following the real pq coins or those with impressive eye appeal.
Look at the age of coin show dealers....many over 50 ..along with customers
You must have found the fountain of youth!
The national, regional and local shows I attend have an average dealer/attendee age in the 60s.
YNs are among the rarest items in the show room!
Funny you should say that. I was at a local show in Houston today, 40 tables and what not, and there was a serious buzz in the air. The place was packed, every table had a customer or three. There were lots of parents with young kids there, all of the kids were getting something and some of them did indeed have coin folders with them. Surprised the heck out of me, but what a good surprise it was. Which is why I was thinking about the question I posed in in the OP above, got me to thinking.
Best, SH
"The grading services feed off the crackout game, adding a bit of gradeinflation to sweeten the pot."
Do you think the above is really true? I do not.
New collectors come into the Hobby every day and will continue to do so. YN's, in my opinion, are just a small portion of collectors entering the hobby and will always be a small portion.
Ken
My experience has been that when attending smaller local shows the dealers are more aged, but at the larger regional and national shows here it seems that there are plenty of young dealers to go around. Try attending some of the PCGS member only shows and you will see several of the young and very smart dealers. Every Long Beach show where I set up we do the YN treasure hunt on Saturday. Sometimes it seems that when the hunt is over early afternoon there are more kids on the floor than dealers who haven't already packed up early.
I'm not saying that the hobby isn't generally an older persons hobby. I am saying that there are lots of young people still actively participating, and when they get older, with more financial stability, they will likely be more active. Probably posting on a message board about how there aren't any kids in the hobby.
My Ebay Store
Do you really believe the grading services don't encourage resubmissions (and crossovers)?
Without them, they would largely be relegated to moderns or foreign coins.
The business model is flawed. More so without resubmissions because, without them, once slabbed a coin would not have any future business potential for that service.
Did it ever occur to you that grading standards may not change by happenstance?
Some mistakenly look at grading services as being somewhat altruistic. They are businesses, plain and simple.
It will all work out as it has for the last 100 years.
These kind of threads crack me up.
Sometimes got to be more generous..coinsRgood ..How about the average age of coin B&M owners ?
There will always be a rare coin market with or without TPG's.
I recall in my teens and 20's being called a "kid" at coin shows. That followed me in my 30's and 40's too. I recall even in my early 50's hearing it one last time. Now I haven't heard "the kid" for at least 10 yrs....lol.
Maybe it's just a hobby that comes with age. YN's will likely still be into it and the rest of the future collectors will just get into it when they develop a deeper appreciation for historical items they can actually own, be it coins, stamps, cards, or artwork.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Only one "real" B&M in my city - two very nice gents in their late 60sor early '70s who sip booz and make a few buck$ in bullion trading or the occasional walk-in with legitimate coins. I worry about them as there are a lot of bad guys out there.
The retail coin store is a relic of the past IMO. It also is an anachronism as I believe the internet, auctions and shows dominate coin trading these days.
So true.
Many mature Americans are Collecting and Investing in US Coins. These are generally well heeled buyers.
Being a coin dealer is a good occupation for a retiree. Its really tough to make coin dealing work without another income source especially at this time. As far as the people who have been in coin dealing from day one and have millions in inventory, this will pass to their children who have been trained to carry forward the family business. I have seen this happening at shows already. I know many dealers who starting dealing in their 20's when slabs first came out - the game is hardly over for them at this time and they will be around for a long time. The coin market runs in cycles and we have been in a down cycle. I see a lot of interest in Modern Issues, Bullion, and World Currency. Younger collectors like value and often collect around themes like BD, Anniversary, or some country they visited on a vacation ,etc. rather than some Vintage date set which is either impossible to afford or would drain their wallet big time.
I believe now is an exciting time to collect / invest in US Coins and I see no direction but up.
You are a true optimist!
Live in a state that has legalized marijuana?
Yes. More retired folks with time to do numismatic research and share it.
Most people are answering whether it is "good for collecting".
Could go either way on that.
Likely prices will rise based on an increased number of buyers, with probably with more wealth than in the past, too.
Then many people will answer how rising prices will affect their personal collecting, i.e.
There's a huge population of baby boomers working through the system. Most of them are likely entering their prime coin-buying years. When their run is over, we might enter a buying-opportunity period.
I have watched this theme crop up repeatedly over the last three forum iterations... since 1999...and still we continue to see packed shows, YN's, older (late 20's early 30's) individuals returning/entering the coin hobby. I believe it is mainly dealers who worry about the market age - particularly 'younger' dealers who fear a shrinking market. The hobby is in no danger of dying... the TPG's are thriving, shows are packed. The forum is always busy.... life is good...go buy some coins. Cheers, RickO
Statehood Quarters created many new collectors who are dormant now.
Many will come back ....
I thought this was a thread about dipped XF coins, not "blue hairs".
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Early onset?
I am not sure what packed shows loaded with YNs we are referring to. The Baltimore shows are generally considered larger in size, and there are definitely NOT hoards (bad pun) of YNs there, even in the dedicated YN playground/rest area.
Greying, or aging in demographics is very important in the longer run and something that Oldsmobile in its time was up against - resulting in the division being given the ax; Buick is in a similar situation.
The State Quarters bit was something like a smaller size Beanie Babies excitement that has seemingly died off with very little interest. My son is in elementary school and note NO interest whatsoever despite me trying different programs.
I have an office with at least 20-25 people coming through as patients each day & have tried giveaways & talks to kids - there certainly is NOT the glint of interest that a new Super Mario video game would generate, in fact nothing like it at all.
There appears to be an ever contracting overall groundswell of interest in coins such as the circulated keys of the 20th C. like the 1909s , 1931s pennies, 1950 d nickels, the 1932 D & S quarters, 1938 D halves, etc.
More money to be spent on the top end it seems, and by relatively fewer buyers.
But it really is not a Chicken Little sky falling worry; coins are enjoyable for what they are and doubt they will all of the sudden lose all value. I enjoy them and probably spend too much on them as well. I just try to be realistic about the market as a whole for them, and where it is heading.
Well, just Love coins, period.
What does legalized marijuana have anything to do with what we are discussing on this thread?
Best, SH
1 Big Problem ....Millennials don't have the money boomers have... big students loans ..poor paying /no jobs .. means little money for coin collecting by up coming millennials
Boomers didn't have any money, either, when they were young.
Wealth is accumulated over time with age and with career progression.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
The younger generation sees the world differently but don't think for a second that they aren't looking.
There is a huge interest in late 1990s and early 2000s era "things" among millennials growing up. The popular culture, toys, technology, video games, music of that era will be stuck in this generation's heads for life. Things like state quarters will not be forgotten.
What we might see is a generation of collectors rebelling against the hobby constraints of their elders- eschewing slabs and stickers and the like. Building collections that include moderns and classics (and ancients and world... Oh my!). Collecting medals and exonumia with fun designs instead of coins. Favoring the variety and aesthetics of a type collection over the expensive prospect of collecting date runs with key date coins. Ignoring mint marks (the horror!). Bringing back coin bartering. Things generally out of favor might make a comeback (modern proof sets, modern commems, classic commems).
If these things seem unlikely consider that in the not-so-distant past nobody collected wildly toned coins, lowball sets, AU58 sets, Morgans by die variety, plus grades, stickers, etc.
It is unlikely that the hobby will die the fiery death so frequently predicted. Certainly not in our lifetimes.
The sky is falling, Numismatics is a great hobby for all ages.
I expect the hobby will survive, though I agree the devaluation and declining use of cash constitutes an unprecedented cultural change that will have an impact and will significantly change the structure and emphases of coin collecting. I'm just not sure how.
Countervailing forces are the periodic surges of nostalgia among collectors generally, and of course, the resilience of precious metals as a wealth refuge.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Graying? Oh how I wish I had a lot more of that gray stuff.
Natural powder-like, dove gray toning on Trade Dollars sure looks nice. I love the graying of many old circulated silver coins.
It's a fair demographics question. I asked a similar question about the collecting habits of Hispanics, the fastest growing population segment and got attacked by some for asking a ridiculous question.
boomers could quit a job find another job same day....boomers college costs at State University was $900 per year....after 1974 recession, it was like the Great Gatsby era ..money on trees for the taking
Generational warfare and divisiveness do not help anyone except those who gain power by exploiting it. It wasn't so easy when I was young. Even with college degrees in science and technology I spent time in unemployment lines. That said, one of my sons has an advanced degree in architecture and a good job, but the long term future for his generation looks bleak, and I wish I could do more for him and them. He worked every year he was in college at low paying jobs, but still accumulated debt with interest rates and terms that are usurious compared to the ones I had. I really feel for todays youth, but if we fight and bark at each other the divisiveness will help no one. "Money on trees for the taking" not quite, but I'd be the first to admit that it's a terrible situation for many of today's youth.
It's important to encourage YNs from an early age.
Some things I've been thinking about which aren't too expensive but could be of interest.
just because today's kids aren't stuffing coins from their paper route into albums doesn't mean they won't ever become collectors. I never once owned a coin album until some silver I bought showed up in one. I never collected from circulation, except for a handful of Kennedys. I still don't check my change that often, yet, here I am going to shows, spending way too much, and having fun.
Besides, the kind of stuff most of us on this forum collect has always been out of the reach of YNs. Those who collect coins worthy of stabbing have always been old, rich, bored guys.
I agree with @BryceM that putting coins into albums may not be the way to excite kids these days. I've taught 12th grade economics as part of Junior Achievement and the full time teacher told me that, in his experience, kids didn't apply themselves unless they saw some financial result in getting ahead. Needless to say albums don't have much of a way to get ahead these days.
After a kid is confirmed to be a YN and shows interest in slabbed coins, I've been thinking coins like the following Civil War era coin could be cool:
As history tells it coin collecting is the oldest hobby around, with the exception of those that collect rocks. I have no worried about our beloved hobby moving graciously through time. It's hear to stay
....I'm most defiantly on the sunny side .
CrazyH, I collect rocks for my job, you mean there are others? ;-)
Best, SH
When I have attended regional coin shows in the St. Louis area the past 20 or so years there have been very few young collectors in attendance. I think this is not only a trend in numismatics but of many of the hobbies the older generation used to enjoy as kids.
I was a vendor at a model train show yesterday selling some of my fathers excess model railroad items and the most striking thing that I noticed was the lack of kids. This was a pretty good size show and I only saw maybe 6 or 7 kids at the show in the 6 hours I was there.
I think the kids are not interested in any of the hobbies we enjoyed as kids and frankly I don't know what they are interested in besides phone and computer games. Nothing that is real, hands on hobbies.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
I am no kid and I don't attend coin shows because most of what I want can be purchased through the Internet or through local dealers. I have much more dangerous and dynamic ways to spend my social time then at coin shows.
I can't imagine many young people wanting to avoid the Internet for purchases, if indeed they are purchasing.
I believe coin shows will die before coin collecting does.
Now, if bullion rises significantly, as others have said, the game changes.
I'm not worried...I think we're just going to see a major change in what is collected. The big future is in foreign coins; the world economy is shifting from west, to east and south, and so will coins. If you want the value of your collection to go 10:1, better shift to the world coin board :-).
Also, the "Whitman Folder Crowd" is starting do die out, and so will the market cap of what they collect. Their replacements will be wealth Asians and tech guys, for example. They will start collecting when their start to mature into their 30's and 40's. When these guys decide to spend some big money on US coins, do you think they will choose Lincoln cents and Buffalos, or, for example, top quality early gold.? I bet they go for the gold.
It depends on your time frame. Many collectors like myself used to go through rolls of pennies and the all the sudden girls and a car became much more important, After marrying and gathering the down payment for a house to raise a family in my coins went on the market. Now that my last one is about out of college and I have more to spend on coins I have reentered the market and am able to get the coins I wanted when a summer construction job paid $7.00 per hour. Rare coins have gotten much more expensive and very few young people can keep up with the prices. As far as foreign coins I disagree with the theory American coins are of lesser interest. In fact now that countries like India and China have emerging economies old U.S. coins that are collectible will be bought by people outside the U.S. to preserve wealth and put their money into Dollar denominated assets. I see many Chinese businessmen that want to put as much of their money unto U.S. assets. I don't blame them as their currency, accounting methods, GDP numbers are not trusted by anyone, Chinese businessmen included. Frankly I cannot think of another country I would park money in. There is a very good reason the U.S. govt can sell 30 bonds at 3.0%, which after taxes and inflation is a break even situation at best. The fact that the U.S. is $21 trillion in debt and can sell this paper at extremely low rates tells me that that U.S. dollar denominated assets are in high demand as the rest of the world is in pretty bad shape. Name a currency you would choose over the greenback. This is going to support the higher end of the coin market. The top of the market will always be strong but generic coins will be the ones that take a beating. The fact that NGC and PCGS having each graded well over 30 million coins since the mid 80s and turnaround time seems to be a problem tells me something about what to expect. I think we are good for another 20 to 30 years as the baby boomers are now selling their T Birds, Harley's and Vets and putting the money into a hobby that age does not matter.
FWIW, The "average" cost of the coins that I sell has to be 5 figures+ and in my gross sales 6 figure coins are starting to make up a significant percentage of my sales. Generally speaking the clients for the coins have considerable life experience . I agree they have to start somewhere but I also know that a lot of them never purchased a rare coin in their life previously.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I don't disagree with Oldgoldlover. I'm just saying that foreign coins have more profit potential than US coins, taken as a whole. Think in terms of stocks; it's easier for a one dollar stock to double in value than it is for a ten dollar stock to double.
I still think that most 20th century US coins have seen their day. Anyone who spends 20K on a Lincoln cent is just trying to buy back his youth and first Whitman folder. That being said, everyone from here to China loves Walkers, so go with those, and top quality 18th and 19th century US, if you don't like foreign.