Hypothetical coin transaction on Craig's List. Is this 100% ethical behavior for a seller?
roadrunner
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I saw a post on another blog that referenced a real CL transaction. So I applied it to coins. What do you think? Personally, I've been in this situation a lot with coins, and frequently have held them without obligation until the person who I offered "right of first refusal" showed up to look at it per a scheduled meeting. Or am out to lunch thinking the seller has any "ethical" obligation to the 1st potential buyer? It's not like the ad had disclaimers stating 1st one with cash gets it, no holds for anyone, etc. I was surprised at the reaction on the other site.....more of a dinosaur than I thought.
This is the seller's post:
I posted a coin for sale on craigslist last Tuesday. That night and over the next day I emailed back and forth with a guy that seemed interested and he offered me a price contingent on him coming to take a look at it, and checking it out per my description. I gave him some days I was open for showings, he couldn't make it until the following Tuesday evening as he is a few hours away. We set a time for Tuesday. Yesterday someone local contacted me and showed up a few hours later cash in hand. I sold them the coin. I contacted the guy that was scheduled to come look on Tuesday and he was REALLY ticked off. He expressed that he thought we had a deal and how I'm not a man of my word etc, etc. I explained to him that Craigslist is very competitive and you have to be ready cash in hand to take home a coin. No seller is going to hold a coin over an email conversation hoping that the person actually shows up. I also explained that I gave him a earlier chance to come look a the coin as I was actively showing it, but he was out of town at a family event... I don't think I did anything wrong, he didn't put money down to hold it and I never said I would hold it.
Comments
Seller did nothing wrong. I never "hold" items for unknown people unless a non-refundable deposit is paid. Only my best customers get the luxury of holding without a deposit, and even then, a few have flaked out on deals and been removed from said list.
As a buyer, if you're looking for deals, sometimes you get beat to the punch by someone who wants it more. I've had scenarios on Ebay where I have a best offer pending on an item, and someone else outright pulls the trigger at full price or makes a better offer.
I've made it a point with BST transactions and when set up at shows that the first contact gets the first shot, until they bow out. I'll wait a few days, but I always follow through. All they have to do is say, can you hold it for a few days and I'm in, even if they're unknown to me. I guess, it's a way to show interest in someone you haven't done business with before and are extending a helping hand.
Question is not whether seller did anything wrong....or legally wrong. Was it 100% ethical and moral behavior? If that were you as the potential buyer, is that what you'd expect for treatment? I know some people would flip if they had a coin held for them on the bourse for a "little bit" and 20 minutes later you return to find it sold.
I think the error was simply not telling the prospective buyer that he COULD sell to another "cash-in-hand" buyer if they present themselves before the scheduled meeting.
Craig's list isn't your average sales vehicle. It's a place to get rid of things, (in my mind). It's not like most people sell on CL as a business model. First-come, first-served seems like a valid way to look at any listing.
So, while making the appointment, the seller should have told the prospective buyer that, just to be clear.
I think what you usually do is very nice, and I understand and honor your rationale. Having said that, I don't think the seller here did anything immoral or unethical. If I were the buyer, I would not expect a seller to pass up opportunities for a sale while waiting for me to say yes or no, unless we had explicitly established that the item was being held for my examination.
I went through a similar situation myself back in 1989 where I had just made a pop 1 dated rarity. The dealer who submitted the coin for me the 2nd time (a different dealer submitted it for me the first time) got it back from NGC with an upgrade to MS65. They offered me 2/3 of the approximate 5 figure value, which at that time was type coin MS 65 money. Their "logic" was that it was a lower grade before and "we both know" it's only a 64+ coin. We couldn't reach a deal so I drove up to get the coin and went home with it on a Friday. There was no deal or even an inference of a deal. Though I think as I was leaving they said "we'll talk about it next week." We were so far apart what was there to talk about? On that Monday I picked up the phone and sold the coin sight-unseen to a major dealer who specialized in these. I got 50% more than the other guy's offer...a double of what I paid.
A few days later the first dealer calls me and wants to discuss my coin further. I told him it was sold. He literally blew sky high. My take was that he felt it was more "his" coin now than mine. He then asked me who I sold it too. Since it was a dealer we both knew and trusted I had no problem telling. Imagine my surprise when he told the other guy that I "screwed" him out of "his coin" and that he wanted 50% of the current deal.....which he did get. They sold the coin for another 20% more money. Needless to say, that was the final straw for our relationship.
Both parties could have communicated more clearly as clearly their expectations were not the same. As the potential buyer, I would have been mad too. It's happened to me before. If the seller tells someone he's going to hold it (setting up a meeting implies this) and he doesn't. then he comes off as a liar.
If he's not willing to hold the coin exclusively for him, he should just be up front about it and tell him something like "Call before you come as it is subject to prior sale." Leaving it nebulous invites misunderstandings & hurt feelings.
But in sticking your neck out a bit with a price/offer doesn't that change things a bit? They seller now knows they have a fairly legitimate buyer. I know when I do such a thing, my offer is usually used against me to get another 1-5% out of the next potential buyer.
Worst case? I had committed to buy a very nice VF+/XF seated half at my local shop....price was agreed on at $75 or VF money. The dealer says he hasn't officially purchased the collection but my offer is good if he gets it....and he'll bring it with him to our next local coin show. Of course he gets it. A few weeks later at the show, before I can even ask him about the coin, a good friend tells me he was really lucky to find a neat seated half. And I assume he just bought it at the show. He proceeds to show me "his coin." LOL. Holy Carp! That's "my coin." And he paid a little more than $75 for it....of course he did. It was probably worth $125 easy. We had a good laugh over that one. I just shrugged it off as a lesson learned. Unless you can walk out with it....don't figure you own it. Some people do business like that.
I wouldn't offer to hold the coin for him to come see it. If he wants it, he can buy it with a return privilege (and pay shipping if he doesn't like it). If not, the coin market is too fickle to hold out and lose money because someone drags his or her feet. The only exception I have made is giving established buyers a little time to pay.
I do agree with the others that the seller should have handled it better, and told the buyer of his intentions and not imply that he would hold the coin.
I agree cameonut2011, there's no doubt it could have been handled better, to the point it should have never happened. But, since it's an example of not being handled the "best way," we can debate who if anyone get the short end of the stick.
What surprises me is that in the field where this CL transaction actually occurred, the overall consensus is 95% siding with the seller that you have no obligation to any CL buyer as most of them won't show up or they'll just screw you over in the end. I'm glad the coin business doesn't run 95% in that direction. Or should it matter in what is being sold? Should it matter if this were an old clock, a painting, a used bicycle, a used car, or an old computer?
You're not saying that a fixed price/obo item on Craig's List that is on hold, should be sold to anyone who comes along to offer more money before the transaction can be completed with an earlier buyer? That sounds like what happened with my half dollar deal above.
I sold my kids playset on Craigslist and had a person commit to buying it 'on Tuesday' so I took down my listing etc. going with the first contact gets the sale. Turned down probably 10 other folks. If you ever want to see a frenzy post a nice playset in the Dallas Ft Worth area! Well Tuesday came and went with no further communication, finally got an email saying 'We found one we liked better so no longer need yours'. Thank you very little. Listed it again and mentioned 'Item is subject to previous sale, cash buyers have priority.' Sold it the day of the listing to the 3rd person who would come over that day with the money. I contacted the other 2 and let them know, they were OK with it. So anything I ever list on CL will always have that notation. I don't think the seller did anything wrong, could have mentioned it but he did not.
K
Nothing wrong at all.
Of course in hindsight, things could have been managed a little better, but life at times is complicated and as I said earlier, nothing wrong was done here.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Nothing wrong with seller's actions.
I recall looking at an item once during a show. It was in my hand being inspected. While I was doing that, the owner came up and snatched it out of my hand and said "it's sold." Seems another dealer saw it earlier and committed on while it was in my grubby hands. That transaction always rubbed me the wrong way. I did have the right to say, "no, I'm buying it as you just offered it to me." Though I'm sure I'd have gotten in fight between the two of them. And besides, I was a bit startled at that time to think very clearly.
I wonder how I'll react the next time in that situation...having prepped myself for it?? If that happened to me as a seller on the coin bourse, I'd wait for it to be handed back (or ask if they are done with it) then tell the other guy if it's theirs or not. The coin business is full of people who feel "entitled" to deals, whether they are buyer or seller.....in violation of the ESSENCE of numismatics.
I've had the same exact thing happen to me off an ad I had on CL. I make it a point now if a potential buyer can't meet with me for a couple days then I will still sell the item before hand if someone else will meet me sooner.
I had been a client of a particular dealer for maybe a year or so. He agreed to hold a low-value coin (<$1k) for me to view and possibly buy at a show. When I got there, he had sold it. I didn't pitch a fit about it, though I was disappointed- it was more of a circumspect, "okay, so this is how the game is played" moment for me than anything else.
I've since continued to be one of this dealer's clients, and over time I would say my 'access' has improved. But when it comes to desireable coins posted on a website or in an email blast, they get sold very quickly- that's the nature of the game. I don't get my heart set on a coin deal until the thing or money has changed hands.
My understanding of CL is cash talks. Sure if you were the buyer in the OP situation, you would hope that the seller would have held it for you. But if I were the seller, the action of posting an item on CL is a clear indication that the item is FOR SALE. There are so many flakes out there, so why not sell to the first cash offer.
Is the seller legally obligated? I don't know. Is he ethically obligated? On CL, not really. The only thing the seller could have done is contact the original interested party and say "look, there is an interested party. Come get your shot or its gone!"
With Craigslist you have absolutely no obligation to hold an item for any one especially if they constantly fail to show up to a scheduled viewing time. I would say only if you agreed to hold it for someone in any situation should you feel a moral remorse if you somehow had a memory lapse and sold to another buyer. Craigslist buyers are few and far between when it comes to reliability when purchasing collectibles. That being said of course this is subjective, but in my experience selling single or whole coin collections 1/5 responses tends to be reliable. In my opinion Craigslist is no different from your standard issue Garage Sale.
It should be noted as well that when dealing professionally in any business or in personal day to day activity, there should always be a moral obligation to practice fair/ethical treatment of any and all persons.
all around collector of many fine things
I've only done 1 CL sale in my life. I had 2 worthy potential buyers for the item that I'm sure either would have paid up. But, I stuck with the first buyer for days waiting for them to issue me a company check (to then be cashed at their local bank...which I called ahead of time on). If they followed through there was zero chance of them being unhappy with the purchases. The other buyer was willing to show up with cash and buy it....assuming they liked it. I told them while that would be good for me, I was following through with the first guy until they gave me even the slightest sign they might not follow through. A few days later I got my check. I wasn't going to toss off the first buyer until they gave me good reason.
You assume the best, until proven otherwise. Or as Dalton would say, "you are nice until it's time to not be nice." Missing one scheduled meeting....means it's time to "not be nice." You can't blame them for all the sins of other CLers until they do it themselves.
Regarding the OP, I do not believe it was in violation of ethics 'as stated'...I do believe it could have been handled better. Ethically, there was only an agreement to 'see' the coin...That being said, as a seller, under those conditions, I would have stated that the coin may be sold by 'next Tuesday'..a non-refundable deposit could have held it. Cheers, RickO
The was no deal, only an agreement to meet. The seller had absolutely no obligation to the potential buyer.
'A bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush'. This old line applies here I think!
K
"Will you hold the item until I can get there to look at it?"
I was helping my dad buy an older rowboat on craigslist. It was exactly the same as the one he was replacing. He agreed to buy it and set up an appointment to pick it up the next day. The asking price was $150 (comparable's in the $400-$600 range). It was a 40 mile drive. When he got home, he mentioned the seller had received higher offers for closer to the comparable range after he agreed to sell to my dad. I am happy the seller kept his agreement, although I suspect many would have not.
The CL mentality would have suggested the seller would be perfectly ok in breaking the deal with your Dad. It seems only cash counts, and the first with the most wins regardless of anything else. I've had some coin deals over the years where I under priced items based on either my own lack of due diligence, laziness, or something similar. When buyers brought the price discrepancy to my attention, I told them it was theirs at the quoted price. I quoted it....I have to stand by it. Only in one of those instances did a potential buyer (a dealer) refuse to take advantage of me. That made an impression with me and I continued to do lots of business with him until he passed away a couple years ago.
That was not what was exactly said. It was not that simple.
I've re-read the OP's opening thread and I still see nothing wrong with it.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
All of your conversations with the first person in this scenario should have included a disclaimer about "first come first serve." The mistake here is that disclaimer was not made at the very beginning, and every subsequent time a conversation with that person occurred.
Seller had no obligation to anyone. The guy that showed up first w cash to buy and consummated deal takes it.
I don't like being jerked around by potential buyers at a show "can u set it aside and hold for me." If they want the coin be an adult and be decisive and buy it. Otherwise have the maturity to realize it's first come first serve.
I don't care for indecision and it's not my problem. If your going be in the game in the coin business being indecisive does not cut it.
I buy and sell a lot on CL and also auto swap meets,
CASH in HAND talks. I will hold an item for a few hours, meaning, get in your car and come get if it is important.
I went to look at a 1967 Mustang Fastback. Asklng price was VERY reasonable, and the owner said he would be home at 6:00 o'clock. I got there about 5:45, and there were at least 8 guys going over the car, looking at rust, damage, etc.
The ad had mentioned other parts, so I asked the owner about them, and he took me to the garage. The replacement parts were not common reproduction, but New Old Stock Ford Fender, Doors, Quarter panels, etc. Just those parts were worth 3x the price of the car, so I told him I would take it, gave him cash, wrote out a bill of sale, and got the title, without leaving the garage.
He went outside, and told the crowd the car was sold, and you would have thought a riot was going to break out. "I was here first" "I called first" "I said I wanted it" etc.
I learned LONG ago if I wanted something, to pay immediately for it, because some Yahoo is going to come back, and say that HE had 1st dibs, etc. Once I paid for it, and have it in my possession , it is mine.
Likewise, I hold stuff for people all the time at a swap meet, with a $20 or so deposit. In every case but 1, the person always comes back and buys it, or with a few exceptions, asked if they could have their deposit back. In all cases, I always refunded it, as I could sell it again. The only real exception was a guy who put down $100 on a 4 speed transmission, and never came back. I toted than thing for a year, hoping he would show up, and never did.
people do things in their own way which may or may not agree with what we think is right or wrong, but we have to understand that some people aren't content with waiting around for things to happen and that if they see something better come along they will go for it no matter what and never look back
the seller did things on his own terms and i see nothing wrong with that
SORRY I'M SELLING HIGH PRICED COINS OR WHAT YOU WANT BUT UNLIKE MANY I SELL WHAT I CAN AFFORD GOT ISSUES THEN GO SOMEWHERE THAT WILL HAVE THE PRICE YOU THINK THINGS SHOULD BE
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COINS FOR SALE AT LINK (WHICH SCARES MANY HERE CAUSE THEY CAN'T CONTROL THINGS)
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMQEq0E9zo28jr3m6oA0CyiZpz-OT4VBnGNnCKjc9DSobLBMR4n4tPPQpGo4xmstA?key=N3ZjV1BnSlhRUkNmLUI3RzM3d3BpSmpOZTRtUU53