New "grey sheet" and a interesting thing that happened..

Coin Finder · October 20, 2016 8:22AM

I was at a coin show set up selling coins all slabbed by PCGS/NGC. Moving out some old inventory I tend to attract other dealers on Sunday. All really nice people. So one dealer tells me that the grey sheet prices are for CAC coins only and if it not stickered then they pay back of the price listed. For some issues like generic Morgans they pay as much as 25% back. Anyone know if this is actually the case? Seems strange as some issues no longer being stickered I think..

Thanks!

amwldcoin · October 20, 2016 8:27AM

Greysheet added a column for CAC coins in the Gold Section. I don't think I would be able to do business with that dealer as I don't send coins to CAC!

PTVETTER · October 20, 2016 8:37AM

I have heard this also from a number ofdealers

CertifiedGoldCoins · October 20, 2016 8:39AM

CAC is an extra cost not needed if you trust NGC/PCGS. It also attracts serious bidders that will settle for nothing less. So I asked Heritage to get one for a coin I've consigned for FUN in January. Cost to me $17.50

N ot a serious proposal, but if CAC encapsulated coins, would we need to have a PCGS sticker applied to them?

bigjpst · October 20, 2016 8:40AM

The bids in the greysheet for generic Morgan's are the posted bids on CDNX for CAC coins. Those are the highest posted bids. Bids for non CAC coins and sight seen and unseen coins are lower and closer to the blue sheet. Better date coins and coins with no current posted bids use some other source to determine prices. Until a couple weeks ago the generic gold bids were the same situation and I think that it was good that CAC now has its own column in that area.

291fifth · October 20, 2016 9:39AM

I have been told by more than one major show dealer that it is not unusual to find collectors who will buy only stickered coins. There are others who will only buy unstickered coins if priced a full grade lower than the grade listed on the holder. At a recent local show I asked several local dealers to explain what the stickers meant. Many of the answers were misinformed and sometimes darkly amusing. This was especially true in the case of "gold" stickers.

roadrunner · October 20, 2016 11:07AM

Common generic coins like MS62-MS65 Morgans trade sight-unseen for not much difference vs. "seen" coins. CAC stickers add relatively little value to coins in that range, and especially in grades of MS63/64 for which most BU Morgans fall into. For less common coins valued at $500 and up I would agree that a sticker would be normally required to pay gray sheet type money for most coins. Regardless, If I saw I coin I really like that didn't have a sticker, that would not stop me from paying well over sheet for it....if not a full grade higher. And the flip side works too. I wouldn't even want to pay near sheet for a stickered coin I didn't like at all....and there have been some of those.

Just because other "dealers" tell you what they think is going on in the market....doesn't mean they're close to being right. It's their opinion or perception and the rules they work under. The so-called "rules" that might apply to say 60% of the US coin market.....also happens to not apply to other 40%. Show me a nice enough unstickered 1881-s MS64 Morgan and I would gladly can pay 64+ to 65 money for it. Such dealers often apply "rules" to make their lives easier....and more profitable....lol.

If the gray sheet shows typical stickered MS65 Morgans fetching say $150-160, I could see run of the mill unstickered MS65's going for $115-$130. Nice coins tend to bring more. Considering that the bulk of the US coin market is still unstickered, it makes little sense to me that the gray sheet would now be defined by stickered-only coins. Apply that to MS65 Saints were approx 5% of the total pops between PCGS/NGC are currently stickered.

JohnF · October 20, 2016 11:26AM

I will attempt to clear up the confusion here. The "Greysheet" levels for Morgan dollars (and other coins) are based on the highest sight-seen bid for that item on CCE or CDN Exchange (CDNX). In cases where there are no bids at all, or the highest bids aren't realistic we do our best to interpret the wholesale market value based on anecdotal market observations, live auction results, dealer feedback, etc. For decades the Greysheet chose the path of observing the high-end of the market for determining bid levels, and that's the tradition we have carried on.

Regarding Morgan dollars, anyone making a living or investing seriously in certified coins should also subscribe to the Bluesheet, which represents the sight-unseen, or recent low observed market level for a coin. The two values create a natural value spread which is very helpful in determining an accurate value in this market.

Neither the Greysheet, or Bluesheet are intended to be the end-all for assigning a value to your coin. They are just (very) informed data points. We encourage our readers to use CU pricing and APR data as well -- both available via PCGS CoinFacts. The more you research your coins, the better you will protect yourself.

John Feigenbaum,
CDN Editor

Cougar1978 · October 20, 2016 12:29PM

I would tell that dealer to shove it. He is trying rip u / pick u off. Then flip on the Bay. CAC only has bids in CDN for generic USGTC. He is feeding u a line of bull on Dollars. Your focus SB retailing your coins not playing their game.

I don't play the sticker game or holder game. Research eBay for what u can buy or sell coins for there.

When I first started taking tables at shows in 1990 they would try rip me w all kinda sheet tricks. When they found blowing in wind left me alone. I set up at show to buy and sell at my price.

hle04 · October 20, 2016 12:35PM

I don't know what the Greysheet policy is. However, with the Marketplace the way it is at this time IMHO if you have any gold coin PCGS 64 or higher it will do much better in the market place with a CAC sticker. I would try to sticker any coin I could like that if I owned it. Same is true for any relatively common 66 Morgan or any 65 or 66 PL or DMPL. The disparity in pricing of NON CAC and CAC coins is astounding

mannie gray · October 20, 2016 3:45PM

I would offer the coins at my price and tell the dealer to take it or leave it.
I agree with Cougar1978.
They're using the sticker/lack of sticker to play it both ways +/-.

bigjpst · October 20, 2016 4:35PM

@Cougar1978 said:
I would tell that dealer to shove it. He is trying rip u / pick u off. Then flip on the Bay. CAC only has bids in CDN for generic USGTC. He is feeding u a line of bull on Dollars. Your focus SB retailing your coins not playing their game.

I don't play the sticker game or holder game. Research eBay for what u can buy or sell coins for there.

When I first started taking tables at shows in 1990 they would try rip me w all kinda sheet tricks. When they found blowing in wind left me alone. I set up at show to buy and sell at my price.

CAC currently has bids for stickered coins posted for both US type gold, and generic Morgan dollars on CDNX. And yes their bids are among the highest in most cases. And Like Mr F. posted, they are the same as the posted greysheet prices.

Sounds to me like the other dealer was trying to do him a favor by letting him know that if he pays bid for generic dollars, he is paying the bid price for CAC stickered coins.

bigjpst · October 20, 2016 4:46PM

There was an article on the front cover of the blue sheet a couple of months ago explaining all of this, and how the Greysheet and Bluesheet spread should be used. The article was posted here on the forums as well.

Greysheet Gold Article

Two Tier Market for Gold

Blue and Greysheet spread. I couldn't find where this was posted here.

Type2 · October 20, 2016 5:30PM

I would say than you for looking, pass on selling him or any one saying that there will be more buyers. It is what it is or take it with a grain of salt. It's kind of dumb that no one can grade a coin only if it has a sticker or label on it that's till it's in there case then they are experts and saying the grading Co low balled that holder.... It is funny after you think about it. Buyers will try sellers will try you just need to stick to your guns and pick your fights. Just say well you asked in your way so I'll give you a bit of discount. Buy the coin not the holder and it will be a okay. Flip, 2x2, Fatties, NGC, ICG, Rattler with or with out a CAC what ever it's the coin we or I want. The holder is a guideline do what you want with it but all the he said she said is nuts Green, Gold, Platinum, Rainbow who cares? not me I can see what I'm buying.

Cougar1978 · October 20, 2016 5:39PM

They are welcome to their opinion but for me the proof in the pudding is what coins will realize on the Bay or if someone on the bourse at a show would really pay those bids. Around 10/16/16 after looking at the CDN with both CAC and non CAC bids on USGTC I did a test. I selected two MS65 1924 Saints one CAC and one non CAC on Ebay. the non cac realized $1479 vs the CDN non cac bid of $1555 and the cac realized $1600 vs the CAC bid of $1950 shown in the GS. While this is just one example and other tests may have different data, I am looking to hear if anyone has shopped a CAC MS65 Saint on the bourse and had a guy pull out his GS and pay $1950 on the spot. I would be astounded if this happened.

Early on in setting up at shows I was one not to play the sheet game in selling. I used it as a tool to buy and knew if I walked something over to another dealers table the offer would be at Bluesheet or 20% behind Greysheet Bid or even less. I remember when at one of my first shows to setup some guy telling me "Blue sheet bid on that is $200 on a coin I was asking $350 on CW Trends, a fair price.. I told him "do you have one to sell me at that.?" He walked off and never bothered me again.

thebeav · October 20, 2016 5:41PM

Yes, I would just have thanked this guy for stopping by......I can't listen when someone tells me how to run my business. That's not something I would ever tell someone.

Cougar1978 · October 20, 2016 5:48PM

Another thing has CAC opened submissions to everyone now like the TPG's? If not the guy who can submit directly to CAC has a huge advantage over those who don't. Reminds me of Ritz Houston where I am VIP - I get free entry into the club (normaly $10) and free entry into upstairs VIP ($100 I believe to non VIP members) I have a huge advantage over other customers who are not VIP with the girls.

Unknown · October 20, 2016 5:52PM

This content has been removed.

bigjpst · October 20, 2016 5:59PM

@Cougar1978 said:
While this is just one example and other tests may have different data, I am looking to hear if anyone has shopped a CAC MS65 Saint on the bourse and had a guy pull out his GS and pay $1950 on the spot. I would be astounded if this happened.

Early on in setting up at shows I was one not to play the sheet game in selling. I used it as a tool to buy and knew if I walked something over to another dealers table the offer would be at Bluesheet or 20% behind Greysheet Bid or even less. I remember when at one of my first shows to setup some guy telling me "Blue sheet bid on that is $200 on a coin I was asking $350 on CW Trends, a fair price.. I told him "do you have one to sell me at that.?" He walked off and never bothered me again.

I am not arguing the validity of your pricing model, but the grey sheet is a guide where they use current market bids. Whether or not you or I can sell to the public, or any other dealer at a show at the posted prices is a case by case issue. But, the posted bids are there on CDNX and any member dealer can execute and sell to CAC or anyone else who has posted bids while the market is open. The greysheet is reporting these bids. Use whatever guide works for you.

Cougar1978 · October 20, 2016 6:10PM

Thank you - I am not trying to push a pricing model nor really care about what somebody else does. Just relating some observations. My current commitment to CDN spending is something like the $45 ebay special they have for all 7 different of their sheets, possibly updating every 3-6 months. I also do World Coins and US / World Currency as US Coins not only area I am in. I can see how someone specializing in Vintage US Coins with a huge inventory investment and traveling to 40 shows a year would have an interest in the CDNX - $100 a month if I recall correctly.

MrEureka · October 21, 2016 1:44AM

Hard to imagine a newbie reading this thread and thinking "Wow, this sounds like a great hobby!"

PerryHall · October 21, 2016 3:36AM

@Cougar1978 said:
I would tell that dealer to shove it. He is trying rip u / pick u off. Then flip on the Bay. CAC only has bids in CDN for generic USGTC. He is feeding u a line of bull on Dollars. Your focus SB retailing your coins not playing their game.

I don't play the sticker game or holder game. Research eBay for what u can buy or sell coins for there.

When I first started taking tables at shows in 1990 they would try rip me w all kinda sheet tricks. When they found blowing in wind left me alone. I set up at show to buy and sell at my price.

Totally agree with this.

dbtunr · October 21, 2016 4:17AM

@MrEureka said:
Hard to imagine a newbie reading this thread and thinking "Wow, this sounds like a great hobby!"

I have a friend who was interested in coins and tried explaining all this stuff to him (TPGs, CAC, CCE network, graysheet, etc) and half we through he said forget it.

JohnF · October 21, 2016 7:29AM

If you spend real money in the rare coin business as a hobby or investment, you owe it to yourself to learn as much as possible. Every hobby has its pitfalls and traps. I think certified rare coins happen to be one of the most informed markets in all collectibles. Try looking behind the screen in collectible art, for example. There's precious little information out there regarding specific values, conditions, etc and the galleries/auction houses have a huge advantage. Rare coins are far more democratic. But one does have to take the time to learn, and stay up on the changing market.

coindeuce · October 21, 2016 4:48PM

@thebigeng said:
I was at a coin show set up selling coins all slabbed by PCGS/NGC. Moving out some old inventory I tend to attract other dealers on Sunday. All really nice people. So one dealer tells me that the grey sheet prices are for CAC coins only and if it not stickered then they pay back of the price listed. For some issues like generic Morgans they pay as much as 25% back. Anyone know if this is actually the case? Seems strange as some issues no longer being stickered I think..

Thanks!

I would have asked that dealer to front the cost of CAC submission for any of the non-CAC approved coins in your inventory that he was interested in, since he appeared to want to characterize non-CAC approved coins as inferior without knowing if any of the coins had ever been reviewed or not. Some dealers use double talk like that because they expect to have their cake and eat it too.

TheDukeK · October 21, 2016 9:46PM

@JohnF said:
If you spend real money in the rare coin business as a hobby or investment, you owe it to yourself to learn as much as possible. Every hobby has its pitfalls and traps. I think certified rare coins happen to be one of the most informed markets in all collectibles. Try looking behind the screen in collectible art, for example. There's precious little information out there regarding specific values, conditions, etc and the galleries/auction houses have a huge advantage. Rare coins are far more democratic. But one does have to take the time to learn, and stay up on the changing market.

This is one of the problems with our Hobby. Everyone is looking at it like a business or investment first, Hobby second. Collect Bullion if that's what your wanting. If this is your career that is different.

@MrEureka said:
Hard to imagine a newbie reading this thread and thinking "Wow, this sounds like a great hobby!"

I was at a coin club meeting and we talked about pricing coins. At the end most were more confused and frustrated. 2 people actually said that "we are all taking the fun out of the hobby". Meaning CDN, Blue, APR, CAC, Resubmit, Green labels, Fatty's, ect...

Can't people just collect what they like at a fair price anymore?

lcoopie · October 22, 2016 5:44AM

I appreciate JF's posting above.

New "grey sheet" and a interesting thing that happened..

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