Guarantee submission
logger7
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I sent in this coin under the guarantee submission: http://i.imgur.com/TGfcgO3.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ssv8KmF.jpg
JA at CAC had called it "altered surfaces". How long should this likely take and what are the likely reasons for the problem?
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That looks like putty all over the obverse and reverse. No doubt that this coin had the putty applied shortly before it was submitted for certification, which would have made the putty difficult or darn-near impossible to detect. Over time, the putty dries out and becomes a visible film on the coin. It seems obvious in these images that this is the problem. My guess is that PCGS will agree with this opinion and offer to either replace the coin, buy it from you or dip off the putty.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
this is a pitfall of some OGH coins. once you get bit by it, you notice it right away the next time one pops up.
take the money (that PCGS will offer you) and run, Forrest, run!
Too bad... looks like you got a bad one.... Cheers, RickO
What do they offer on coins like this? I paid $2850, which is around Greysheet.
You have to send it to PCGS to find out. They will examine the coin and give you options, which you may or may not like. It may also take some patience to get through the system.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
in my experience pcgs will not offer to buy the coin. I submitted 4 OGH coins with putty. They removed the putty, did not change the grade on any, even though several scratches were revealed, and charged me for the removal on top of it.
This is my guess too.
It wasn't always so. But over the past several years PCGS has dug-in its heels about payouts and free treatment to correct things like putty and PVC.
Lance.
What does the legal print say on their "guarantees"? Since grades are also guaranteed they should be responsible for making good on coins they certified as of a particular grade. If the coin turns out to be an MS62 in reality, there is no way around responsibility for making good on the difference. Speaking with JA, I said I had three options; selling it to someone else as a good coin, trying to sell it back from the dealer I bought it from or submitting it under guarantee, the only realistic option. He agreed.
That sucks
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If, in PCGS's opinion, the coin merits a downgrade (after conservation or otherwise), they will talk about payout options.
The problem is over agreement that the coin deserves a downgrade. You can argue and negotiate all you want. But in the end PCGS makes the call. And because it is simply an opinion (albeit an "expert" one) it is virtually impossible to dispute.
Lance.
PCGS price guide at 63 is $3750 and $1995 at 62. The $2850 you paid was in the middle. Based on that, I would think submitting under guarantee is your best bet.
An interesting conundrum if your coin is in an old enough holder that it was graded a 63 when unputtied it would have graded 62, but under current grading standards the unputtied coin is now considered a 63.
Your only real option is the guarantee. It may look just fine after the putty is removed. One of my OGH's still looked like the assigned grade was correct, the other 3 I sold. Since then I am very careful about buying OGH's. Most will have dried out by now and show the putty residue, but you must look for it closely. Never buy gold in an OGH sight unseen!
I got it back today, same grade, I'm generally satisfied, but had to wait 3 1/2 months.
Looks great!
A lot better than the puttied version.
Lucky there weren't some gouges under that putty.
You did well IMO
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Did PCGS charge for the conservation?
Why was the putty applied in the first place? Doesn't look like it was hiding anything...
On the first question, no charge yet; on the second someone was trying to get a higher grade, a little light hairline activity that may have been covered a little but didn't translate to a higher grade.
You did very well on what could have been a disaster. Well worth the wait - in this case. Cheers, RickO
I ran the coin by CAC today and JA came out and told me what the real story was. He said the putty was like a woman's makeup to cover up some tooling which he pointed out to me. After the "restoration" the tooling was obvious to an expert. So I guess at this point I will have to take it back up with PCGS.
I like it, but what do I know about gold other than it's shiny!
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logger, specifically, where is the tooling JA identified? To the portrait? Or somewhere else?
Lance.
Further up from the eyebrow on the field to the left of where the hair crest meets the crown. He said it was likely initials that had been tooled to erase the initials and subsequent putty application was to cover the tooling.
Unfortunately the close-up with the scan image looking like gold toning, looking at it with my Zeiss loupe and tilting it around I see a fuzzy patch.
I think you are going to get a haircut if you submit it under the guarantee. You spent true MS63 retail and the higher end of the auction records. I think it might be better to blow it out on the BST or eBay for a fair price. Maybe someone with more recent experience with PCGS payouts will be more helpful.
Interesting post logger. Your relationship with JA provided you more insight than most of us have in these circumstances.
Assuming PCGS goes along (and I think JA's opinion counts a lot) you will be offered what PCGS feels a dealer would pay for an MS63. You might do okay. The alternative offer will be you keep the coin, reholdered in a details slab, and PCGS will pay what they feel is the loss.
Yes, as cameonut points out you can unload it elsewhere as-is, but not in good conscience unless you disclose the problem.
Good luck and keep us posted!
Lance.
Coin looks pq with the minor problem, really hard to see and with all the other same date mm and grade coins I have looked at it seems very comparable.
By running the cert# PCGS lists it as a $3500 coin, so I would think that's where negotiations would begin.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I got a response back today from someone in C.U. that offered $800 plus the return of the coin in a problem holder. I was told that current auction results were way under Greysheet on the coin, but research I have done shows that Greysheet is pretty close to auction results on the coin (for nice or cac coins). I hope I can get a satisfactory result on the problem.
PCGS's price guide is $3200. But that's retail and PCGS values guarantee-submission coins based on dealer purchasing price. Recent auctions are around $2600-2900.
The $800 offer is their calculation of the loss. I.e., the difference between what a dealer would pay for a problem-free MS63 vs. an MS-details.
There's a substantial drop in value between problem-free 63 and 62...retail it's $1335; auction is around $1250.
I would be surprised if dealers felt an MS-details is worth about MS62 problem-free. I would negotiate more with PCGS.
What did PCGS offer you for the coin (i.e., they keep it)? You should have been given that number too.
Lance.
I got this explanation of the offer basis:
"The last 1901-S $20 in PCGS MS63 sold for $1528 in December 2016. The one before that $2585. I extrapolated the current value from those actual prices realized, not our price guide number, which is very rarely what we base our guarantee offer on. Our guarantee represents dealer wholesale value. This coin sold raw as UNC would bring about $1300, and in a 63 anywhere from $1500 to $2100, so hence our offer of $800 and the coin back to him in a UNC details, spot removed holder."
But if you look at both NGC and PCGS MS63 sales obviously some are much better than others. Most of the lower results are arguably not solid MS63 coins. When I spoke with John Albanese about the problem last fall he suggested I try to sell the coin back to Guilford Coin where I bought it for $2850, most dealers like this don't want to take coins back. I told JA I had an offer on ebay of $2400 he thought that was too low. So this comes down to market standards. I looked at a lot of auction records in the last year for so and the price is definitely softening.
$1528 is an anomaly. Look at the other recent auctions. Even for NGC coins. All over $2,200. One over $5k. Throw out the low and high and average the rest. That's the first argument I'd make.
I'd probably take the $2400 ebay offer (full disclosure?).
What did PCGS offer for the coin?
Lance.
I recently had a coin run through the guarantee process.
It was 1885 Morgan in 66 PL, that wasn't really PL. (Ebay purchase back in 2005 with crappy photos and no return).
Anyways I finally got to sending it to PCGS.
They offered $450 for it, price guide is $575.
The other option was get the coin back in a non PL 66 holder and $200.
I took the $450, since it's not really a coin I want or need at this point.
If you don't want your $20 in a details holder, then I would try to get the best cash offer for the coin so you can move on.
fyi, There was a poor quality 63 that sold in Dec 2016 for $1527.
A details holder coin would probably be worth melt to $1600, depending on if someone buys it to sell raw or maybe even
re-putty it and get into a higher straight graded holder.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-690WW
$800 plus the return of the coin in a problem holder.
No...what was their offer for a payout and they keep the coin?
There are always two offers. "Here's the newly slabbed coin in its problem (or lower) holder along with some money. And here's our payout and we keep the coin."
Lance.
Curious--even on a freshly graded coin that on REALLY close examination has a tiny bit of PVC, and it could be seen on the cert photo that PCGS took (once one knew where to look)? I had thought that they would correct something like that under their guarantee...
PCGS quietly did away with the free service to remove PVC. I've talked with DW about this and his position is that signs of PVC were not obvious during grading so PCGS will not correct it free. Their website has been updated.
"The PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion."
I think you'd have a strong case if the True View image taken when the coin was graded clearly shows PVC. I suppose there'd have to be no debate that the TV was taken when the coin was first graded and not sometime later.
Lance.
I agree with the updated statement.
The other Morgan dollar I recently sent in developed a spot after being graded, and the reply was that the coin was still properly graded and would be returned in the existing holder. I asked if I could use the PCGS restoration service and pay the fee. Still waiting for a reply on that.
$1750 for the 1901-s $20 that was in a 63 holder. I countered a couple hundred more than their offer of the return of the coin in a problem holder as one of the leaders in the business recommended but have not received any response to that in weeks saying that their offer was "final" but they still have the coin. I spoke with the guy over at NGC who handles their guarantee submissions, Scott Schechter who told me NGC tries their best to help the dealer or collector be made whole based on purchase invoice and current market. I agreed with the cash offer and return of the coin in the details holder. Coin does look like an MS63 and the problem is blended into the surface.
As you imply in your last paragraph, he has absolutely no way of knowing this. Mistakes happen.
Can you ask them for a refund of your shipping and the coin back in a PCGS 63 holder? If so, I'd go that route and blow it out on eBay with excellent photos (to be fair to the buyer). As I said, I would not count on a TPG payout ever. In many cases, it is better to take a small loss and sell it as is rather than deal with all of the headaches.
Whoever sold it to you should have taken it back--all dealers should stand behind the coins they sale.
That dealer in turn should then go back to whoever they bought the coin from, and they from who they bought it from, etc, so that as few people as possible lose money on the deal. Eventually, the coin will in fact go back to PCGS, but only after the previous deals have been "undone."
With all due respect, this is absurd. Why should someone who potentially sold the coins years ago and relied on a TPG opinion take something back like this? There is a reason that there are return privileges. Upon expiration of the return privilege, it is over. Moreover, all of the previous deals do not need to be "undone" to invoke the guarantee. PCGS should step up and make an offer consistent with the market value of the coin as it was (if the grade was correct). The only one who owes the OP anything here is PCGS.
Geeze, a lot of problems with that single coin.
I hope it works out for you.
As Paul Harvey would say there is "the rest of the story". I got the coin back in a PCGS problem holder and still did not see the tiny patch as a sufficient issue for the no grade. If it was "tooling" as cac had said, it was probably had been done a long time ago. I took it out of the holder, sent it to NGC with an order that graded it MS63. One try. So the PCGS and NGC graders saw it as a good coin, but cac said it should not be in a straight holder. Just felt a responsibility to update that.