Grade opinions on two Newps

panexpoguy · October 6, 2016 12:32AM

I picked this up after taking a long look at it and wondering if it had a legitimate chance at MS68. Looks like original skin and toning and it looks very mark free.

I also picked up a St Gaudens because I always wanted one and thought it would have a good home in the Box of 20 I am building for my son which consists of things I like, but don't necessarily collect. The back is mark free from what I can see, but I don't have an image right now. Does this look like a decent MS64 obverse? Some hits on the rays and bump on the nose but I thought it had a nice look to it. I have no idea how these are graded though. Can you educate me? Thanks!

MICHAELDIXON · October 6, 2016 12:40AM

I do not think the Mercury will 68. When I first looked at it, the tick on the bust and what appears to be fine lines on the right hand side of the neck struck me as distracting.

messydesk · October 6, 2016 1:06AM

No 68 on the dime. I don't know what it's graded now, but it has distracting toning plus a fingerprint working against it on the reverse and it appears as though there are blemishes on the eyebrow and cheekbone in addition to the aforementioned bust tick.

The Saint looks really nice for a 64. Take a look at a lot of 64s and you'll see many have hacks across the rays yours doesn't have. The "punch in the nose" is typical of Saints and doesn't concern me.

DollarAfterDollar · October 6, 2016 1:11AM

Mercury Dime is an easy MS 67+ FB coin at PCGS. The toning is neutral and the coin has a nice strike.

The Saint is upgradable. I'd think. If it gets a CAC bean I'd be more certain. I'd send it there first.

lcoopie · October 6, 2016 1:25AM

I would think a 68 would have to have good eye appeal and to me that seems lacking.

grip · October 6, 2016 3:01AM

Originally posted by: messydesk
No 68 on the dime. I don't know what it's graded now, but it has distracting toning plus a fingerprint working against it on the reverse and it appears as though there are blemishes on the eyebrow and cheekbone in addition to the aforementioned bust tick.

The Saint looks really nice for a 64. Take a look at a lot of 64s and you'll see many have hacks across the rays yours doesn't have. The "punch in the nose" is typical of Saints and doesn't concern me.

This.

Walkerfan · October 6, 2016 3:05AM

The print on the Mercury doesn't distract me and the subtle toning is fine. I like the frosty surfaces, too. Trying to get a 68 out of it would seem like a gamble to me. I like it at 67.

Saint looks great---it's a solid 64 with a shot at 65 but I wouldn't want to lose that holder. I'd just send it to CAC.

hle04 · October 6, 2016 3:07AM

The 1924 $20 Saint looks great in the image. Not sure about an upgrade but should CAC. That is worth the investment. Most Saints in Rattlers are not messed with

panexpoguy · October 6, 2016 4:16AM

Thanks for the comments. Here is my take on them at this point.

I like the $20. I want it left just as it is in the old holder. As long as you folks agree that it is a 64, I am content. I won't be sending it to CAC.

As for the Merc, it is on the truck and will be in my mailbox this afternoon, but here is how I see it from the images:

At this point I am of the opinion that the areas of the cheek bone and eye brow are not hits or rubs. The dark toning exists on the obverse on all of the details oriented toward one direction (the hair and the helmet flap in front of the ear all show the same dark tone). All the obverse toning is oriented in stripes from 11 o clock to 5 o clock, so I say this is toning pending an inspection, but you could be correct. The lines on the neck are flow lines from the striking. Those marks radiate out from the bust in all directions.

On the reverse there are both flow marks and die polish marks. The dark toning is again all oriented in one direction, with the light tan/gold toning oriented in a different direction. That could be a fingerprint. It could also be the result of the washing and rinsing of the planchet prior to striking. Needs to be looked at. The frost on the coin is very nice and I consider this type of toning to be strongly indicative of originality and find it appealing when contrasted with the frost (but I respect all opinions on toning). A very original Merc with truly unappealing toning can be seen if you look at the 1944 D MS67 FB in my set.

Anyhow, the nick on the bust is a drawback, but the reverse of this is much nicer than the reverse of the sole 1937 MS 68 FB in Coinfacts. Is that enough to counter the tick since the obverse matters more? Probably not. But I agree that 67+ is a strong possibility if cracked and submitted. It is currently in an NGC fatty holder with pre barcode label so it won't be getting cracked out. Perhaps sending to CAC to see if it didn't sticker, stickered, or Gold stickered would be fun.

golden · October 6, 2016 4:44AM

Originally posted by: lcoopie
I would think a 68 would have to have good eye appeal and to me that seems lacking.

Wabbit2313 · October 6, 2016 4:48AM

Originally posted by: panexpoguy

It is currently in an NGC fatty holder with pre barcode label so it won't be getting cracked out. Perhaps sending to CAC to see if it didn't sticker, stickered, or Gold stickered would be fun.

It is actually in the bad barcode/numbering Fatty. 67, with a slight chance of going down if cracked, to my eye.

joebb21 · October 6, 2016 5:23AM

I think ms67 is where she shall stay.

Needs to have more pzazz to go 8

panexpoguy · October 6, 2016 5:31AM

You are correct, I misremembered the holder. I won't be cracking it out, but from your perspective you see it as a low 67 at best. Will you entertain a friendly wager on whether or not it CAC's. I say it gets a green bean. If it does, you make a donation in my name to the ANA. If it doesn't sticker I make the same donation to the ANA in your name. $25? Numismatics wins regardless. Sound like a good way to kill time? ??

bolivarshagnasty · October 6, 2016 5:49AM

To my eye, I see a harsh dip and an ugly retoning taking place. What am I missing here?

My 37 in 67 for reference.

panexpoguy · October 6, 2016 6:24AM

Originally posted by: bolivarshagnasty
To my eye, I see a harsh dip and an ugly retoning taking place. What am I missing here?

My 37 in 67 for reference.

The only example I am certain has been dipped is yours.

Wabbit2313 · October 6, 2016 6:29AM

John loves those Mercs and those holders. I can see a bean in it's future, but if cracked, I can see it going down, especially as of late with grading here.

No bet for me on the bean. I will also not bet on the coin going less than 67 on a crack, since I do not wish that on anyone.

panexpoguy · October 6, 2016 6:42AM

Originally posted by: Wabbit2313

John loves those Mercs and those holders. I can see a bean in it's future, but if cracked, I can see it going down, especially as of late with grading here.

No bet for me on the bean. I will also not bet on the coin going less than 67 on a crack, since I do not wish that on anyone.

I respect your opinion Wabbit and particularly your willingness to speak it clearly. You may be right, it might downgrade if cracked. If I had to guess, I would say a crack would result in a 67 or possible 67+ at PCGS. But with the new graders, I suspect you are right in seeing a 66 as possible. I have a number of Mercs in my set that are dipped and I like them just fine, but I don't see this as a harsh dip gone bad. The frosty appearance suggests that is not the case. Again, Bolivar may well be correct.

I will send it in to CAC as is and report how it does. If it doesn't sticker, I will donate $25 to ANA for the benefit of young numismatists. Just sent 10 or so in to CAC today, so it will be a couple of weeks until I send in another, but I will send it in. If it doesn't sticker, I will ask for an explanation from JA and share that as well so we can learn why. I did not buy it because I needed it. I like the look, just my taste. Here is the example from my set.

mannie gray · October 6, 2016 9:25AM

Good decision not to crack it.

rainbowroosie · October 6, 2016 10:30AM

Don't crack the dime. Love the gold piece!

ricko · October 6, 2016 8:33PM

Cracking that would (IMO) be a mistake... doubt it would see 67 again. It may be the magnified image, but appears to lack eye appeal with the black whatever....Cheers, RickO

brg5658 · October 6, 2016 10:55PM

I always get a chuckle when people ask us to chime in on grading and then only show one side of a coin.

C'mon...I know you admitted to not having a reverse photo, but you can't expect us to give you meaningful information from one side of a coin.

As for the Merc, I would put it around 66 and limited as such due to the negative eye appeal. Just my 2 cents.

asheland · October 6, 2016 11:43PM

I'd leave it in the fatty. Nice coins, by the way!

panexpoguy · October 7, 2016 12:20AM

Originally posted by: brg5658
I always get a chuckle when people ask us to chime in on grading and then only show one side of a coin.

C'mon...I know you admitted to not having a reverse photo, but you can't expect us to give you meaningful information from one side of a coin.

As for the Merc, I would put it around 66 and limited as such due to the negative eye appeal. Just my 2 cents.

Coin has been received and I can image this afternoon. I do not have access to ebay from work and I only had the obverse image on my email. The reverse, as I said, looks mark free to me from what I saw, so the hits on the obverse are what I was asking about since the obverse carries more weight.

As for the Merc, your take seems to be close to consensus. I am sending it to CAC for fun to see what they think. For the sake of discussion, ebay item 282199631965 is a 1937 Merc FB MS67+ PCGS graded and CAC approved coin with very similar appearance, a small nick under the chin, and far more ticks on the diagonal bands on the obverse than the coin I imaged. Ebay item 371604141814 exhibits even more of the toning characteristics and is PCGS FM MS67 and CAC approved. My curiosity is will the reverse carry the tick on the front and it may not.

panexpoguy · October 7, 2016 4:52AM

I am no photographer, but here is the reverse of the SG

originalisbest · October 7, 2016 5:44AM

The Saint is sweet. The fatty Merc is nice enough, and it has original skin -- it's as "not dipped" as any coin can be -- but the minor bit of black surface tone is a slight distraction, enough to limit it to MS66 if it were cracked and graded today.

DollarAfterDollar · October 7, 2016 7:30AM

I really think that coin gets a green bean. The toning is neutral, the luster is amazing and the only tick (on the truncation) is textbook MS 67. Just polish up the holder before you send it so the green bean sticks well.

panexpoguy · October 19, 2016 4:41PM

Got the CAC results back for the small submission I sent in to get the question answered on this Merc.

BIGAL2749 · October 19, 2016 10:26PM

I suspect the Morgans are toners

panexpoguy · October 20, 2016 5:12AM

@BIGAL2749 said:
I suspect the Morgans are toners

Doilies

panexpoguy · October 20, 2016 5:17AM

duplicate post

Grade opinions on two Newps

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