Advice needed concerning PCGS 94 Altered Surface graded coin

justdave · October 2, 2016 11:45AM

Hello

I need some advice please. I sent to PCGS a raw 1909-s Lincoln Cent (no vdb). I was expecting a grade of MS65 Red. Was very disappointed that it was deemed Genuine - UNC Details (94 - Altered Surf.). I honestly don't see why, but, I paid for the expert opinion so now I'm stuck with that opinion. My question is this:

If I want to sell the coin, would I be better off breaking the coin out of the holder or should I sell the coin in the slabbed designated Altered Surface?

I don't want to do anything unethical.

justdave

MICHAELDIXON · October 2, 2016 11:55AM

Post a picture of the coin.

MorganMan94 · October 2, 2016 11:56AM

I think the ethical thing to do would be leave it in the holder, but if you are looking for more $$ then breaking it out is definitely the way to go.

djm · October 2, 2016 11:58AM

I would try cracking the coin out and resubmitting it. You may get a better result from a different day and a different set of eyes. This time check the box don not holder genuine coins. If you can wait another 2 months to get the coin back.

TomB · October 2, 2016 12:13PM

You mention that you expected the coin to receive the RD designation, which leads me to believe you may have a coin that was previously dipped or manipulated and then was recolored. Copper surfaces are very finicky and if you have a coin that appears red, but has received an altered surfaces review, then it may very well have had lots of work done on it in the past.

Coin Finder · October 2, 2016 12:20PM

I would sell it as is in the holder. Take the loss, it will be temporary how you feel about. No emotion is final..... Learn from this coin first, ask yourself why? If not sure post it here.

Timbuk3 · October 2, 2016 12:34PM

Agreed, I would leave it in the holder !!! ??

LanceNewmanOCC · October 2, 2016 12:59PM

Originally posted by: TomB

You mention that you expected the coin to receive the RD designation, which leads me to believe you may have a coin that was previously dipped or manipulated and then was recolored. Copper surfaces are very finicky and if you have a coin that appears red, but has received an altered surfaces review, then it may very well have had lots of work done on it in the past.

+1

w/o pics, all i can say is, "your genny today is someone elses score tomorrow."

.

rainbowroosie · October 2, 2016 2:01PM

Crack it, take an enhanced photo, then sell it as gem on eBay. Clearly state no returns.

1Mike1 · October 2, 2016 3:54PM

If its ethics you're worried about, leave it in the slab and pass the knowledge of the coin on. I see lots of coins in genuine holders being sold. One more bit of advice I would give is don't buy high dollar raw coins unless you are willing to take a financial hit like you will on this coin.

TopographicOceans · October 2, 2016 4:06PM

The only ethical choice is to sell it in the PCGS Genuine holder describing the experts opinion.

to the Forum

justdave · October 2, 2016 8:53PM

"I would sell it as is in the holder. Take the loss, it will be temporary how you feel about. No emotion is final..... Learn from this coin first, ask yourself why? If not sure post it here."

thebigeng,

thanks for that advice. There wouldn't be much loss as I purchased the coin some 15 years ago and only paid $86. Whoever sold it to me probably broke it out of a holder. lol

justdave · October 2, 2016 8:55PM

Originally posted by: 1Mike1

If its ethics you're worried about, leave it in the slab and pass the knowledge of the coin on. I see lots of coins in genuine holders being sold. One more bit of advice I would give is don't buy high dollar raw coins unless you are willing to take a financial hit like you will on this coin.

1mike1,

I did learn that lesson!

ricko · October 2, 2016 9:35PM

Definitely sell in the holder..... if the buyer disagrees, they will crack it and resubmit (or maybe sell raw - some are not ethical).... Cheers, RickO

JeffMTampa · October 2, 2016 10:07PM

Sometimes "alterd surfaces" can be very minor. I had a MS looking Half Dollar that I submitted to PCGS and returnde in an "Altered Surfaces" holder. After close examination I could see a patch of rub on the cheek that was sort of concealed by some substance. I gave the coin an Acetone bath and the substance disappeared, leaving a very nice looking AU coin.

I submittied the coin again, and it came back in an AU 58 holder. I was happy.

astrorat · October 2, 2016 10:32PM

Originally posted by: rainbowroosie
Crack it, take an enhanced photo, then sell it as gem on eBay. Clearly state no returns.

Wow.

astrorat · October 2, 2016 10:36PM

Originally posted by: justdave
Hello

I need some advice please. I sent to PCGS a raw 1909-s Lincoln Cent (no vdb). I was expecting a grade of MS65 Red. Was very disappointed that it was deemed Genuine - UNC Details (94 - Altered Surf.). I honestly don't see why, but, I paid for the expert opinion so now I'm stuck with that opinion. My question is this:

If I want to sell the coin, would I be better off breaking the coin out of the holder or should I sell the coin in the slabbed designated Altered Surface?

I don't want to do anything unethical.

justdave

Take the opportunity to show the coin to dealers who have expertise in copper and have them educate you on why the coin may has altered surfaces.

If you crack the coin out and sell it raw, it's appropriate to inform potential buyers that it was once deemed "altered surfaces" by PCGS. However, you will get more for the coin in the PCGS genuine holder and that holder will disclose the appropriate information to potential buyers.

logger7 · October 2, 2016 10:36PM

Who did you buy it from? You could go back to them with this since you now paid another $25 or so and see if they will take it back, that is the ethical thing to do. Altered surfaces is more serious than artificial toning. There are dealers selling coins like this raw as good palming them off on unsuspecting collectors and none of the four main services, PCGS, NGC, Anacs or ICG put coins like that in problem free holders, I have even found ICG will put two negatives on the holder on problem coins like that.

astrorat · October 2, 2016 11:54PM

Originally posted by: logger7
Who did you buy it from? You could go back to them with this since you now paid another $25 or so and see if they will take it back, that is the ethical thing to do. Altered surfaces is more serious than artificial toning. There are dealers selling coins like this raw as good palming them off on unsuspecting collectors and none of the four main services, PCGS, NGC, Anacs or ICG put coins like that in problem free holders, I have even found ICG will put two negatives on the holder on problem coins like that.

If you were a dealer and a customer came back to you 15 years later and told you that the coin you sold him 15 years ago has been determined by PCGS to have altered surfaces, would you take it back?

After 15 years, how would you verify that it was indeed the same coin? Was the same buyer? Coin was stored properly? Surfaces weren't "altered" after it was purchased (no offense to the OP)?

Would you pay the going rate for an "original" coin or the price 15 years ago (after all, the buyer could have bought a different coin and gained the market value for the past 15 years)? Would you reimburse PCGS fees, including shipping and insurance?

logger7 · October 3, 2016 1:12AM

OK, with that long the dealer or seller is probably long gone.... I would try to walk it up to a real expert who can tell what was done to the coin.

VanHalen · October 3, 2016 1:20AM

Originally posted by: rainbowroosie

Crack it, take an enhanced photo, then sell it as gem on eBay. Clearly state no returns.

You dirty dog!

justdave · October 3, 2016 4:46AM

Photos attached of 1909 s Lincoln. PCGS graded as Altered Surface. I just don't see what the problem is with this coin. Any opinions?

Hmm, sorry. I have the images on my computer but the forum is asking for a URL of photos. Need help please on attaching a photo to a post

DorkGirl · October 3, 2016 4:49AM

justdave · October 3, 2016 5:04AM

I want to post a photo of the coin we are talking about, but I'm new here and the attachment button asks for a URL. Need help posting the photos that I have on my computer

justdave

justdave · October 3, 2016 6:18AM

logger7

I bought the coin many years ago online. I wouldn't even try to get money back. I'm sure the return time is expired. I only paid $85 at the time. I would post photos here if I only knew how. When I click add photo it asks for a URL. The photos are on my computer

justdave

MorganMan94 · October 3, 2016 6:21AM

Create an account at collectivecoin.com (free) and upload photos there then paste the link. That is what I do and it seems to be the easiest way. Then when you need to post more photos later it is easy to do.

TwoSides2aCoin · October 3, 2016 6:38AM

Tuition assistance is available. Pay Pal plus 3% . No Pay Pal gifting allowed. All advice is confidential and comes with a money back guarantee. You probably won't like it (my advice) , nor the coin out of the holder either, now that you've gotten it back ; so my free advice is to live with it. It's all about what you get out of the lesson. Sorry it's disappointing, and expensive. That part sucks and I feel ya, bro. Have a giveaway , or try, and try again (the resubmission game).

Note: The big boys reserve the right to change their minds after they see it enough times.

No charge today. But if I have to advise you again, it's $25.

roadrunner · October 3, 2016 6:49AM

Just because you received a opinion of "94" doesn't necessarily mean that's the last word. I cracked out a $10 Lib out of PCGS MS64 holder about 10 yrs ago. I thought the coin was wonderful and should upgrade. It came back altered surfaces from PCGS and then NGC as well. When I showed the coin to former TPG graders who were experts in gold coins, they couldn't tell me exactly what was "wrong" with it. I couldn't sell the coin for even MS64 money so I consigned it raw to a major auction house. They resubmitted and it graded MS66 first time out for them. My certain $1,000 loss now became a $2500 gain. Don't confuse a single grading event with absolute certainty.

Dealer Charlie Browne, once a top TPG grader told me about a gem original roll of red Indian cents he had purchased. When submitted to the TPG they came back as altered surfaces. He couldn't believe it. I don't recall how that story ended but I doubt it was with Charlie doing the "right thing" and dumping the coins back on the market as recolored and taking a huge bath on the deal. Those were probably bought at major auction under intense competition. More than likely they ended up in choice/gem red graded holders. I'm also aware of a couple of dealers who were quite proficient in years past getting MS65/66 RD recolored key/semi-key date Indian cents through the TPG's. It wasn't exactly a secret if even I knew about it. No answers here....only anecdotes.

justdave · October 3, 2016 7:14AM

Here are the photos of the coin in question:

https://collectivecoin.com/jus...s/Pz6JjxFwwzEhR0mMQcV2

TomB · October 3, 2016 7:44AM

It appears PCGS thinks there is lacquer on at least part of the coin unless they always use the term for altered surfaces.

TomB · October 3, 2016 7:46AM

There is also a TrueView available online by typing in the cert number and the TrueView looks substantially different from the images posted above.

MorganMan94 · October 3, 2016 8:05AM

Originally posted by: TomB

There is also a TrueView available online by typing in the cert number and the TrueView looks substantially different from the images posted above.

Didn't even think to look that up when I looked at the photos he posted. What an incredible difference, they don't even look like close to the same coin!

justdave · October 3, 2016 9:19AM

I was also very disappointed in the TruView image...don't understand that. This was my first submission to PCGS and didn't know what to expect

SoCalBigMark · October 3, 2016 9:29AM

S mint should be more brassy than coppery.

jclovescoins · October 3, 2016 9:35AM

It is a problem coin. You should try to return it if you paid more than $200. The TrueView image shows the problems clearly. Your photo looks like it is a Gem Red.

justdave · October 3, 2016 10:05AM

Bought the coin raw many years ago and paid $85. Can't return it obviously

jclovescoins · October 3, 2016 10:09AM

Nice coin for $85!

Bochiman · October 3, 2016 10:43AM

justdave,

First off, welcome to the forums!

Secondly, sorry you seem to have gotten a "worked on" coin. Copper can be hard. Due to color designation, a lot of them may have been worked on. I've been bit by this once or twice myself.

Third, some real smart people on these forums and some with great advice.

Fourth, some real smart@$$es on these forums as well....you will learn from their responses when you see it. Realize it is nothing personal to you...they just think that they are funny and they really don't have much else to contribute (and, they really aren't that funny)

Fifth, some folks will always be combative. To you, to dealers, to collectors, etc. Grain of salt time.

Sixth, stick around and enjoy the forums. As I mentioned in #3, there are some really great folks around here.

MICHAELDIXON · October 3, 2016 11:21AM

The lacquer can be removed, but if the coin was "enhanced" prior to the lacquer being applied, then it would still be a problem coin. PCGS has the restoration service and does an excellent job. But, if it were me, I would leave it in the holder and sell it as is.

justdave · October 3, 2016 11:49AM

I have appreciated ALL the advice and comments from all the great members here. I had high hopes for that coin. Quite a let down after waiting so long. I sent it in on Aug 8th and just received it in the mail today. An MS65 grade might have warranted a value of $1500 to $2000! And now, no telling the value. Oh, well...so sad, too bad... lol Lesson learned

AMRC · October 3, 2016 12:28PM

It does not matter. Either way, the "problem" has to be disclosed.

scubafuel · October 3, 2016 1:15PM

Hi Dave, your images are below. thanks for trying CollectiveCoin!

If you want to add coin images directly to your post, just click on your pic, choose the blue "forum" link, and then ctrl-v (paste) directly into your post. Let me know if you have any troubles. It works for most browsers.

Insider2 · October 5, 2016 1:57AM

I'm really sorry about your experience.

Your personal moral character is the only thing that is going to dictate what you do. Obviously, the coin will bring more money out of the slab as someone else less informed as the graders will also think the coin is a gem! After you learn how to detect the A/S get rid of it IN ANY WAY YOU CHOOSE.

justdave · October 5, 2016 2:15AM

Insider2,

Thanks for taking the time to add your opinion to the others.

justdave

asheland · October 5, 2016 3:14AM

Acetone will remove lacquer.

asheland · October 5, 2016 3:14AM

Oh and,

johnlv12 · November 30, 2017 5:16PM

@justdave said:
Hello

I need some advice please. I sent to PCGS a raw 1909-s Lincoln Cent (no vdb). I was expecting a grade of MS65 Red. Was very disappointed that it was deemed Genuine - UNC Details (94 - Altered Surf.). I honestly don't see why, but, I paid for the expert opinion so now I'm stuck with that opinion. My question is this:

If I want to sell the coin, would I be better off breaking the coin out of the holder or should I sell the coin in the slabbed designated Altered Surface?

I don't want to do anything unethical.

justdave

Did you sell the coin yet? If not, I would like to make an offer.

alohagary · November 30, 2017 5:37PM

How can spot the lacquer and where is it

au58 · November 30, 2017 5:38PM

So, this started as a question regarding ethics.
Later, we learn that what is so sad and too bad is that it is not a $1500 or $2000 coin.
What is the real issue here?
I can't tell from the photos what is wrong with the coin, but it is worth something to someone.
Disclose the issues, crack it or not, it may still be worth $85.

jmlanzaf · November 30, 2017 5:47PM

@djm said:
I would try cracking the coin out and resubmitting it. You may get a better result from a different day and a different set of eyes. This time check the box don not holder genuine coins. If you can wait another 2 months to get the coin back.

Have you seen the coin? It's hard to know that without seeing the coin. IT could be an obvious case of altered surfaces.

Broadstruck · November 30, 2017 5:49PM

I wouldn't dump the coin so fast as once the lacquer is removed it should grade.

Advice needed concerning PCGS 94 Altered Surface graded coin

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