1945 Walking Liberty Half

jtlee321 · July 26, 2016 6:49AM

I have a 1945 Walking Liberty Half that I picked up not too long ago. After examining it, I noticed something interesting going on in Liberty's gown above her outstretched arm. They look a bit like die cracks but they seem to be in a pattern almost as if done intentionally, which is why I was wondering if they might be die gouges rather than die cracks. If they are gouges, what would be the point of them? If die cracks, what would cause them to be where they are and the pattern they have taken? If anything, I think it just makes the coin a little more interesting to me.

I'm curious as to your take on it.

silverpop · July 26, 2016 7:12AM

hard to tell but looks like die cracks

Walkerguy21D · July 26, 2016 7:56AM

I'd vote for die cracks also, but very unusual.....

lcoopie · July 26, 2016 8:32AM

raised = die cracks as I understand it

LanceNewmanOCC · July 26, 2016 8:49AM

.

im goin' with gouges.

to see cracks like that would be astronomically low, especially for this type.

the die would have needed to essentially shatter, internally at that.

having said that, they have the look of cracks.

people have posted some wild gouges on unc coins this year, oddly enough.

BUT

cracks can form from die defects/damage. see it plenty on morgan/peace from clashing.

so technically, it could be both.

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edited to add

there is something going on with her neck. it is like her blood pressure is through the roof.

bigger pics of the "gouges" would be nice.

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mannie gray · July 26, 2016 8:59AM

Very interesting.

I can't recall seeing anything similar on Walkers I have examined.

jtlee321 · July 26, 2016 10:11AM

I will post some high detail images shortly.. I thought it was very interesting, they just have a look to them, I can't explain, other than un-natural..

jtlee321 · July 26, 2016 10:51AM

Here is another image. This is the most magnification I can get out of my setup right now. I don't have a microscope and the lens I had to use for this image is in desperate need of replacement. My working distance between the coin and lens is only 1.25 inches so lighting is very tricky. My apologies for the image, but here it is.

and a link to the image directly, which is slightly smaller in the post above.

Direct Image Link

scubafuel · July 26, 2016 11:05AM

I'd call them die scratches, or tooling marks (from the mint). Not damage to the coin, in my eyes.

PKing · July 26, 2016 11:11AM

Looks like a metal flow issue, probably due to a problem with the planchet when it was struck.

LanceNewmanOCC · July 26, 2016 11:15AM

.

microscopic objective and accessories. $120 shipped give/take.

dont ask, just buy.

search out rspmrpms or whatever his moniker is and see if he still sells em.

you will need to tell him your camera/model for the adapter ring but it is a no-brainer.

ill post some examples.

actually ill pm him and ask him to contact you. it will be easier.

sometimes with high-mag, 1 light is better but you gotta break it loose and move it/them around.

cut me some slack as these were early days for my micro-obj. - my 2016 efforts, if i gave it an A effort, would destroy the old.

1 - 2 - 3 - 4.

hope it helps

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jtlee321 · July 26, 2016 11:27AM

Originally posted by: LanceNewmanOCC
.
microscopic objective and accessories. $120 shipped give/take.

dont ask, just buy.

search out rspmrpms or whatever his moniker is and see if he still sells em.

you will need to tell him your camera/model for the adapter ring but it is a no-brainer.

ill post some examples.

actually ill pm him and ask him to contact you. it will be easier.

sometimes with high-mag, 1 light is better but you gotta break it loose and move it/them around.

cut me some slack as these were early days for my micro-obj. - my 2016 efforts, if i gave it an A effort, would destroy the old.

1
- 2 - 3 - 4.

hope it helps
.

I have chatted with Ray over on Coincommunity when I was getting my setup. I know which microscope objective I want, it's just not high on my priority list with my limited income right now. I have some coins I sent to Great Collections, that once they are sold, will be buying some new equipment.

One piece of equipment on my list is this StackShot Focus Rail followed by a Nikon microscope objective.

LanceNewmanOCC · July 26, 2016 11:42AM

Originally posted by: jtlee321

followed by a Nikon microscope objective.

cool-e-o

i dont need to know why you need that rail (wow btw) but ray also sells rails/bellows setups. just fyi.

i need a microscope stand. bad. (from a microscope) just the tray (the name is escaping me) and adjustable backing for micro-incremental adjustments raising/lowering. i know they can be found cheap but it has fallen off the priority list.

know whatcha mean about funds. got a dozen or more slated for pcgs, once i stop buying more and more coins. doh

.

jtlee321 · July 26, 2016 11:43AM

My question is, if it's die gouges, why did they make them? Was there a bored Mint employee who thought they would "enhance" the flag that Lady Liberty was in? It's just odd that it is only in the area's with the stars of the flag. I can count 7 distinct lines, no other cracks or gouges appear on the obverse.

What it reminds me of is the 1957-D re-engraved tail feathers Washington Quarter. It made sense on that coin, because they were trying to add back detail to a heavily polished die. The die state of this particular half dollar is probably early to mid. I don't really see any die erosion or a lot of metal flow that would suggest fatigued dies.

joebb21 · July 26, 2016 11:47AM

Im glad somebody finally posted this. 5 years ago I showed my ms62 example to Michael Fey (the guy that wrote the VAM book) and asked him his thoughts. He was very interested in this and together we looked through hundreds of 1945's trying to find a second example. We were able to locate 1 other coin that was mid AU. Michael said he tried for months to contact contact Bill Fivaz to get this interesting "variety" attributed and even wrote an article about it-in anticipation of it being recognized with my ms62 being the "discovery specimen". I believe we were going to call it the raised rays variety. Bill never got back to us about this coin and still five years later I have never taken the initiative to post here on my find.

Glad somebody else finally did!

ps. This is specimen #4 that I now know of.

Ill try asking Michael if he still has the write up he did years ago

jtlee321 · July 26, 2016 11:47AM

Originally posted by: LanceNewmanOCC

Originally posted by: jtlee321
followed by a Nikon microscope objective.

cool-e-o

i dont need to know why you need that rail (wow btw) but ray also sells rails/bellows setups. just fyi.

i need a microscope stand. bad. (from a microscope) just the tray (the name is escaping me) and adjustable backing for micro-incremental adjustments raising/lowering. i know they can be found cheap but it has fallen off the priority list.

know whatcha mean about funds. got a dozen or more slated for pcgs, once i stop buying more and more coins. doh
.

I wouldn't say it is a need, but it would be a huge help. I have a bellows with a focusing rail right now, but focusing at higher magnification is such a tough job for me, it's just so touchy. The focusing rail has an incredibly minute amount of movement for extremely precise focusing, plus it get's my hands off of the rig.

LanceNewmanOCC · July 26, 2016 11:49AM

Originally posted by: jtlee321

My question is, if it's die gouges, why did they make them?

did you just ask (why) about human behavior. oh boy.

mint employees and their tools, acid, grinders, punches. my oh my.

it may not have been intentional. a lot happened to dies/hubs unintentionally.

i still hold firm that some people had a previously bad day and looked forward to busting out the ol metal grinder for the dies just to see the sparks start flying. specially in the 18/19th centuries when americans had an average of 10 kids. thats for another day though.

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jtlee321 · July 26, 2016 11:56AM

LOL, that is true!! This was at the end of WWII as well.. Maybe he was celebrating being back to back World War Champs..

ricko · July 27, 2016 12:53AM

Based on the 'irregularity' of the edges, I would favor die cracks... as unusual as these are. Very strange, but the magnified images suggest cracks to me, not gouges. Cheers, RickO

Insider2 · July 27, 2016 1:06AM

I've examined one of these several months ago using a stereo microscope. They are definitely raised lines on the coin (incuse on the die). Since they run in a basically radial direction my guess is they were caused by stress breaks in the die. That makes more sense than unusual die polish or tool marks. These coins must be EXTREMELY rare as I have been looking at WLH for a very, very long time and never saw another until the OP now.

jtlee321 · July 27, 2016 2:54AM

Thanks Ricko and Indsider2. The shapes suggested die cracks on some and others seemed very straight which felt like tool marks. I wonder if it's possible that they started out as minute radial die cracks and some tooling was performed to help relieve the die from cracking further, in order to extend the life of the die. Since it was towards the end of the war when these were struck, I would imagine tool steel was probably in short supply and needed for the war effort.

astrorat · July 27, 2016 4:32AM

Originally posted by: ricko
Based on the 'irregularity' of the edges, I would favor die cracks... as unusual as these are. Very strange, but the magnified images suggest cracks to me, not gouges. Cheers, RickO

+1

asheland · July 27, 2016 4:32AM

Looks like die cracks to me.

UMCane · July 27, 2016 8:01AM

If those marks are raised, then die cracks (or die issue) is the cause. Most unusual die cracks though, the tend to be circular around large diameter coins.
If it's embedded into the coin, I vote for gouge or scratches.
From some of the hi-res photos, the marks look raised.

gonzer · July 27, 2016 8:51AM

They actually looks like the rays from a Peace dollar.

DIMEMAN · July 27, 2016 11:47AM

I would go with die gouges. Die cracks are where the die starts breaking down and this just not look like a pattern of weakness that you would see on a die.

On another note ...... is that doubling on the motto or just the pic making it look that way?

jtlee321 · July 28, 2016 3:05AM

There isn't any doubling that I noticed. It's just the lighting.

The lines are certainly raised wich is indicitive of both gouges and cracks. If the lines were incuse, then that would be post mint damage. The lines seen here are transfered from the die.

I may send it to James Wiles to get his opinion. Who knows, maybe it's a new variety.

LanceNewmanOCC · July 28, 2016 4:44AM

Originally posted by: jtlee321

If the lines were incuse, then that would be post mint damage. The lines seen here are transfered from the die.

hub transfers "incused" to dies "raised" can lead to incuse defects on coins. ive seen a few.

not that it has anything to do with the op coin.

i will look for a 78cc $1 image(s) i have of such a thing.

added

incuse on 2 unc examples i formerly owned. thought it an odd die scratch til saw 2nd example.

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1945 Walking Liberty Half

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