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Should MS/PR 70+ exist as a Grade??????
ambro51
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Think about it..... If no defects are shown at 5x what if NO defects at higher magnification exist, a fully flawless piece, does this coin not then out grade a regular 70? This would of course trounce the top grade market and change the entire investing dynamic.
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Taken a step further. What if the coin has flaws under 10X? And then 20X? You still don't have a flawless coin. And there will always be another one that has less "flaws" than yours. Look long enough and deep enough, and there will be a flaw or some deviation from perfection. I could see grading single coin as MS70. But that would have to be the very finest of all the coins for that date/type. There can only be one coin that is the "best," anything less is not perfection. At this point in time, we have generic MS70's where a coin is graded 70 because there are no readily apparent flaws in the time it takes the TPG to scan the coin (ie 3-15 seconds and often w/o magnification). MS70 is just another grade higher than MS69. Just like MS60 doesn't technically mean "uncirculated, no wear, no rub, full mint luster, never handled, never placed in circulation, etc"....MS70 doesn't mean perfect.
I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I've yet to see ANY TPG coin in a MS70 holder that is absolutely flawless under 5X magnification....especially the ASE's. And in nearly all cases, those 5X "defects" can be seen with the naked aid once identified. PF70's might be another story. I've not paid any real attention to those.
Taken a step further. What if the coin has flaws under 10X? And then 20X? You still don't have a flawless coin. And there will always be another one that has less "flaws" than yours. Look long enough and deep enough, and there will be a flaw or some deviation from perfection. I could see grading single coin as MS70. But that would have to be the very finest of all the coins for that date/type. There can only be one coin that is the "best," anything less is not perfection. At this point in time, we have generic MS70's where a coin is graded 70 because there are no readily apparent flaws in the time it takes the TPG to scan the coin (ie 3-15 seconds and often w/o magnification). MS70 is just another grade higher than MS69. Just like MS60 doesn't technically mean "uncirculated, no wear, no rub, full mint luster, never handled, never placed in circulation, etc"....MS70 doesn't mean perfect.
First, I'll agree that the 70 grade has become *****ized!
For the rest, I'll disagree with you. I've examined hundreds of coins using a stereomicroscope (especially SE's) and found NO DEFECTS.
One Seminar Instructor (Fazzari) has written that the diamond industry has a 10X standard for "flawless" (coins have 5X standard). Nevertheless, when he goes in to purchase a diamond and they set the scope at 10X for him to take his pick; he reaches up and cranks the power up as high as it goes and then picks the stone with the fewest flaws. That covers him when the standards change.
He too has written that he has graded many "perfect coins." MS/PR-70 is perfect (ignoring any hits in the edge reeding or there would be very few 70's). IMO, the ONLY reason to start the 70+ grade would be to denote exceptional eye-appeal or toning.
The OP is way ahead of us as it is a good bet that one of the four major TPGS will do that within a short period to rake in more money! My guess it will be our host!
I am looking for the 70+ with a gold bean
wouldnt that be a wicked cool looking coin.
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is MS70+ a real thing?
Is MS-70 a real thing?
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First, I'll agree that the 70 grade has become *****ized!
For the rest, I'll disagree with you. I've examined hundreds of coins using a stereomicroscope (especially SE's) and found NO DEFECTS.
One Seminar Instructor (Fazzari) has written that the diamond industry has a 10X standard for "flawless" (coins have 5X standard). Nevertheless, when he goes in to purchase a diamond and they set the scope at 10X for him to take his pick; he reaches up and cranks the power up as high as it goes and then picks the stone with the fewest flaws. That covers him when the standards change.
He too has written that he has graded many "perfect coins." MS/PR-70 is perfect (ignoring any hits in the edge reeding or there would be very few 70's). IMO, the ONLY reason to start the 70+ grade would be to denote exceptional eye-appeal or toning.
The OP is way ahead of us as it is a good bet that one of the four major TPGS will do that within a short period to rake in more money! My guess it will be our host!
You're shooting holes in your own thesis. Obviously, the diamond industry has no technic ally flawless stones. So why should man-made coins be exempt? Are the planchets perfect in every respect? Was the handling perfect such that not a single graze or hairline resulted? Grading a "perfect" coin MS70 using imperfect grading standards (ie no defects visible at 5X) is sort of silly. Any given day the grader might be sharper and he'll find that same defect with less than 5X. And TPG's are ignoring hits in the reeding area because it would make too few MS70's? Come on now. A flaw is a flaw. If it's visible with a 5X, it's a flaw regardless if the holder is going to end up hiding the defect. I consider any minute frost break, streak, spot, etc. on the coin to be a defect....the mint didn't put those there during the striking process, but rather sometime in the post-striking handling or shipping. Any surface fdistraction is a flaw. And from what I've read, graders assign grades to ASE's without a glass. Are they required to put a 5X on the coin if its a min grade bulk lot at MS70? I've never considered the reeding...but, I'll start looking at that as well.
Regardless of the stereo microscope usage, I've been able to find defects on all PCGS/MS70 silver coins I've inspected with only a 5X. I'm not holding my breath for the first one I find that I cannot find a single flaw. Note that my discussion only concerns MS70's....not proofs. It may well be that Fazzari has graded many PF70's. The QC process for those is much different than business strikes.
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There are a couple of guys who come to many of the local shows with their own graded slabs. I've done Google searches on their company name and come up with nothing. But they have all their coins out in their holders and nice looking labels. The odd thing is that every coin is MS. MS40, MS50, MS60, etc.
MS70+ defines a coin that is in better shape than it was when it left the mint. Seems like that implies it had some work done on it and should not be graded.
Well, some coins are Better than they left the mint, and their price reflects the fact that they're better than MS70, I'm thinking rainbow toned Morgans and other coins.
It's just a matter of time until someone has the bright idea of "grading" such coins MS-75, MS-83, MS-97, etc. Heck, wouldn't even have to stop at MS-100, why not MS-140 or MS-210?
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is MS70+ a real thing?
Here is the only real MS70 I've seen
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--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I think here if you discard the posts without facts then you find a lot of collectors who find flaws on MS70 graded coins. Does this not back up my theory that a truly flawless coin is indeed an MS70+? And what happens when ASEs begin to have VRT (Vivid Rainbow Toning), will these then not receive the "toning and eye appeal" bonus grade? Responses indicate a higher plateau than "run of the mill" MS70 coins exist.
A perfect coin would be a 70. There is no way to be better than perfect so you can't have a 70+. A 70- would be a perfect coin with wart/s but not enough to be a 69.
I am looking for the 70+ with a gold bean
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Technically, how hard would it be to intentionally produce a "perfect" coin?
To produce it, it's probably well within reason. Just ensure you start with a "perfect" blank and a perfect die. The coin must then be 100% struck up. No residue of any kind can be left on the coin following whatever mint rinses occur. Once struck, it should to be hand carried with gloves/face shield and then perfectly packaged. Stacking into rolls probably ensures some minimal contact on the vast majority of coins.
The next step is to ensure no spittle or other environmental hazards get on the coin by the time it is received at the TPG. And then we have to be sure the TPG's don't breathe on it wrong or handle it with bare fingers. And then we have to be sure after all that happened, that nothing potentially detrimental got into the holder before sealing as eventually that could cause a spot, etc. And lastly, proper storage by the owner in a fully inert environment to ensure moisture, mold, dust, gases, etc. don't enter the holder and cause a change such that it no longer meets MS70 standards.
My concern is that one MS70 might be a lot better than another MS70. How can that be if both are "perfect." Clearly then, there is something "better" than just MS70 with the current system.
Technically, how hard would it be to intentionally produce a "perfect" coin?
To produce it, it's probably well within reason. Just ensure you start with a "perfect" blank and a perfect die. The coin must then be 100% struck up. No residue of any kind can be left on the coin following whatever mint rinses occur. Once struck, it should to be hand carried with gloves/face shield and then perfectly packaged. Stacking into rolls probably ensures some minimal contact on the vast majority of coins.
The next step is to ensure no spittle or other environmental hazards get on the coin by the time it is received at the TPG. And then we have to be sure the TPG's don't breathe on it wrong or handle it with bare fingers. And then we have to be sure after all that happened, that nothing potentially detrimental got into the holder before sealing as eventually that could cause a spot, etc. And lastly, proper storage by the owner in a fully inert environment to ensure moisture, mold, dust, gases, etc. don't enter the holder and cause a change such that it no longer meets MS70 standards.
My concern is that one MS70 might be a lot better than another MS70. How can that be if both are "perfect." Clearly then, there is something "better" than just MS70 with the current system.
Would it be worth the trouble? There would have to be something in it for the Mint in order to get them to expend the extra care.
70 is theoretically the top grade.
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