HERITAGELive!!! Who's following the Tokens and Medals right now.
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've been following things all morning and it seems that prices have been very good, many lots exceeding the pre-auction estimates. The items I'm currently excited about all come off later this evening, S0-Called Dollars, and if prices so far for those medals are an indication I may have to stretch further than I had figured. SC$'s have been strong.
Has anyone won anything yet??
Al H.
Has anyone won anything yet??
Al H.
0
Comments
I went 1 for 3, and will report back when it's all finalized.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
But I was several bid increments short
I also lost out on the Tiffany Bryan Dollar I wanted.
Some of the large silver Bryan pieces went for more than double the upper estimate.
I'm two out of seven so far.
Strong prices, agreed.
Daniel I wanted those too but they were too rich for me.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
So many nice pieces that were up.
I did end up with one of the Tiffany Bryan Dollars, dcarr, and probably overpaid for it. I will say however, that it was the nicest one I've seen.
I saw one that was real dog in a dealer's case years ago. It had been cleaned bright white and had some serious rim cuts. That didn't stop him from getting over $600 for it. I would have paid no more than melt because it was really ugly.
I suppose the promotion that drove up all of the So-Called Dollars is over, so maybe that dog is not worth as much now. The trouble is you don't see enough of those pieces offered to really know what the market is.
Still in rehab. Get to go home Wednesday.
Thanks,
TD
Have lots 98783 and 84 sold yet? If so, could somebody please tell me what they hammered at?
Still in rehab. Get to go home Wednesday.
Thanks,
TD
Lot 98783 HK-372 obverse + HK-376 obverse mule struck on silver planchet bidding still open @ $600 / $705.00 on estimate of $200 - $300.
Lot 98784 HK-372 reverse + HK-376 reverse mule struck on 1885 dime bidding still open @ $550 / $646.25 on estimate of $200 - $300.
TD
this could be said for the pricing and grading of much of the entire catalogue. the trouble with Bryan Dollars is that mainstream collectors want them and the medal you won has the word "Tiffany" on it which just seems to enamor so many people. we get quite a bit of Tiffany jewelry and most of it is really nothing special from an aesthetically beautiful perspective, yet we know we can get a nice premium just because it's stamped Tiffany.
It is interesting to note that the Tiffany Bryan dollars are not as artfully presented as the Gorham pieces. Yes, both makers produced pieces that are dominated by lettering, but the lettering is more attractive on the Gorham pieces in my opinion. Here are a couple of pieces from my collection.
Tifffany - The reverse of this piece is blank. Only one variety of the Tiffany pieces has a reverse.
Gorham - The name and engraving at the top of this piece was added after Gorham made the piece.
For those who are confused by the message presented here, this is really an anti-Bryan dollar. These pieces were made of coin silver (90% silver, 10% copper). They were proported to show that a silver dollar really had to be this size in order to be worth a dollar. The standard number was that it took only 47 cents worth of silver to produced a Morgan silver dollar. One had "To trust in Bryan for the other 53 cents." The cartwheel on the reverse of the Gorham piece was the diameter of a standard silver dollar.
I saw one that was real dog in a dealer's case years ago. It had been cleaned bright white and had some serious rim cuts. That didn't stop him from getting over $600 for it. I would have paid no more than melt because it was really ugly.
I suppose the promotion that drove up all of the So-Called Dollars is over, so maybe that dog is not worth as much now. The trouble is you don't see enough of those pieces offered to really know what the market is.
None of the Bryan Dollars in this sale were particularly rare; I consider all of them to be R-6 or less. The grades were much higher than usually seen, but even then not impossibly so. The HK-779 sold in this sale was MS-62 (although it looks like it was a nice MS-62); Heritage has 7 other listings in their archives as high as MS-63. The HK-777 in this sale was MS-62; Heritage has 4 others in their archives, none higher than MS-62.
I totally understand paying premium prices for premium pieces. Some of the prices in this sale are nuts, though. If anyone wants a HK-853a, I'd be happy to provide multiples at half of whatever this one ends up selling for -- and even that would be overcharging.
Lot 98784 HK-372 reverse + HK-376 reverse mule struck on 1885 dime bidding still open @ $550 / $646.25 on estimate of $200 - $300.
Elder made a lot of different mules and various other "weird strikings" with these dies, including uniface strikes and obverse/obverse and reverse/reverse strikes. I have sale records for about a dozen different, including ones struck on foreign coins and ones struck on silver dollars. Each one is very cool, and each one is presumably unique... but that's a tough set if anyone is aiming for completeness!
Lot 98784 HK-372 reverse + HK-376 reverse mule struck on 1885 dime bidding still open @ $550 / $646.25 on estimate of $200 - $300.
Elder made a lot of different mules and various other "weird strikings" with these dies, including uniface strikes and obverse/obverse and reverse/reverse strikes. I have sale records for about a dozen different, including ones struck on foreign coins and ones struck on silver dollars. Each one is very cool, and each one is presumably unique... but that's a tough set if anyone is aiming for completeness!
It would be pretty cool to have a PCGS Registry Set of these with TrueViews.
If each one is presumably unique, one would have to buy them all when they come up for sale. Sounds like it could be a neat collecting focus with many years of the chase!
I don't know what rarity scale you are using, but if it's the Sheldon scale R-6 that means 13 to 30 pieces, and that's not many examples, especially when you count the pieces that have been dipped and scrubbed, which I don't want. So far as past results go, they give you past selling prices which are of use, but those pieces are of no use to me unless the buyers have them up for offers. As for the HK-779, I think that I have only seen four or five of them in my time as a political collector, which covers about 20 years.
I've been burned when I listened to dealers who tell me they can supply a given item to me for less money. I've passed on buying something, that was in hand, only to be disappointed when the dealers didn't keep their promises or were all talk. Most of the times the dealers make those claims and never follow up with offers of something for me to buy.
And I am not a cheapskat. I pay good money.
A couple of months ago a dealer told at a show me he had an HK-779 he would send me. I've yet to hear to from him, and this typical of the kind of service I receive.
When I was a dealer I worked very hard to fill want lists, and it was a very important part of my business. I made a lot of money from my want lists, because I filled most of them. Most dealers don't bother with want lists. They would rather flip the items fast, and it's too much trouble for them to match the collector with the coin.
If a piece I want is in your case, I'll ask about it and try to do business with you. Otherwise my 55+ years of exerience tells me that you go after "birds in the hand." The others are just "in the wind."
As for the Elder varieties, I've bid on them a few times in auctions, but never won them. Private issues like that are sort of divorced from the election campaigns don't interest me that much. If I ever acquire an Elder piece, it would be limited to just one for the type. I would have no interest in forming a collection of those piece in all of those metals.
Sorry for rant, but this represents years of frustration from listening to the advice of dealers who were not selling the specific pieces to me. I've been mislead too many times.
Even if you include some resubmissions -- which I think are actually no so likely when it comes to the So-Called Dollar pops, although I can't prove it of course -- I don't see how the population could possibly have fewer than 20 nice pieces.
Now that I'm looking... the highest slabbed HK-779 at NGC is a MS-65. In fact, NGC has slabbed 5 Bryan Dollars as MS-65, and another 4 as MS-66, considering the whole series from HK-777 to HK-786. Wow. I had no idea there were so many high-grade pieces out there.
I can't supply any of those pieces to you. I simply find it very interesting to know that they exist. There's a big difference in my mind between things that nobody has ever seen and things that I haven't seen.
As for ranting about dealers, I have a feeling it could go both ways. I was reminded recently about someone who contacted me about something I listed on the BST board several months ago, asked for a bunch of pictures... and then disappeared without a peep. In the past six months, I've had three people apologize for forgetting to bid on something that I had on eBay, begging me to resist. When I did relist... not a peep from them either. Stuff happens. You deal with it.
And you also learn not to listen to dealers except for the few with whom you have had a good track record.
When I was dealer I had few people ignore me after I contacted them, but looking back, it wasn't that many.
Have lots 98783 and 84 sold yet? If so, could somebody please tell me what they hammered at?
Still in rehab. Get to go home Wednesday.
Thanks,
TD
Update:
Lot 98783 HK-372 obverse + HK-376 obverse mule struck on silver planchet bidding still open @ $850 / $998.75 on estimate of $200 - $300.
Lot 98784 HK-372 reverse + HK-376 reverse mule struck on 1885 dime bidding still open @ $900 / $1,057.50 on estimate of $200 - $300.
Very strong bidding.
I have a raw one struck on a foreign coin that I thought was neat. Want to get it TrueViewed one of these days.
I've had a chance to look at the So-Called Dollars book since you post. The rarity numbers for the Bryan dollars seem suspect to me. It claims that the 1896 Gorham pieces are R-5's which translates to 76 to 200 known. That is only one step higher than the rarity ratings for the Tiffany pieces.
There is no way that estimate is correct. Those pieces are readily available at the major shows and far more common than the Tiffany pieces with the blank reverse. There has be at least 5 or 6 hundred of the 1896 Gorham pieces, and there are probably more than that.
JMHO, but the Elder mules are silly fantasy pieces not worth tying money up on. I accept that The Good Captain is our resident Elder expert and as such is interested in them, but I believe a more prudent approach towards these might be to get them on loan from an owner for inspection and analysis.
If I still had my collection I would have chased these, but I do not and did not.
I do own a small Hudson struck on a BU Honduras Centavo, the perfect memento of the two great collections of my life. It was a gift from a friend.
Have lots 98783 and 84 sold yet? If so, could somebody please tell me what they hammered at?
Still in rehab. Get to go home Wednesday.
Thanks,
TD
Update:
Lot 98783 HK-372 obverse + HK-376 obverse mule struck on silver planchet bidding still open @ $850 / $998.75 on estimate of $200 - $300.
Lot 98784 HK-372 reverse + HK-376 reverse mule struck on 1885 dime bidding still open @ $900 / $1,057.50 on estimate of $200 - $300.
Very strong bidding.
I have a raw one struck on a foreign coin that I thought was neat. Want to get it TrueViewed one of these days.
The problem with these is that you can't really have the obverses piece without the reverses. You're talking about some pretty big money for both of them.
Other than that, they're very cool
--Severian the Lame
I assumed your interest was purely research. are you saddled up and ready for today's round two??
About to grab my walker and head down the hall to the coffee pot!
this auction looked like it was almost exclusively NGC material, no doubt because many/most of the medals were slabbed prior to the PCGS entry. any guesses as to how long before some PCGS slabs start to show up??
There are no upgrades for me in this sale and nothing I'm eager to pick up as a duplicate.
I've therefore decided not to bid at all as I'd like to see where the final hammer blows fall without my participation.
So far I've almost fallen out of my seat a few times on what some of the HTT's have fetched in the last second.
Have lots 98783 and 84 sold yet? If so, could somebody please tell me what they hammered at?
Still in rehab. Get to go home Wednesday.
Thanks,
TD
Update:
Lot 98783 HK-372 obverse + HK-376 obverse mule struck on silver planchet bidding still open @ $850 / $998.75 on estimate of $200 - $300.
Lot 98784 HK-372 reverse + HK-376 reverse mule struck on 1885 dime bidding still open @ $900 / $1,057.50 on estimate of $200 - $300.
Very strong bidding.
I have a raw one struck on a foreign coin that I thought was neat. Want to get it TrueViewed one of these days.
The problem with these is that you can't really have the obverses piece without the reverses. You're talking about some pretty big money for both of them.
Other than that, they're very cool
What did they bring, please? Can't remember my password.
Have lots 98783 and 84 sold yet? If so, could somebody please tell me what they hammered at?
Still in rehab. Get to go home Wednesday.
Thanks,
TD
Update:
Lot 98783 HK-372 obverse + HK-376 obverse mule struck on silver planchet bidding still open @ $850 / $998.75 on estimate of $200 - $300.
Lot 98784 HK-372 reverse + HK-376 reverse mule struck on 1885 dime bidding still open @ $900 / $1,057.50 on estimate of $200 - $300.
Very strong bidding.
I have a raw one struck on a foreign coin that I thought was neat. Want to get it TrueViewed one of these days.
The problem with these is that you can't really have the obverses piece without the reverses. You're talking about some pretty big money for both of them.
Other than that, they're very cool
What did they bring, please? Can't remember my password.
Lot 98783 brought $1,057.50 all in.
Lot 98784 brought $1,175.00 all in.
On silver dime blank: $1,057.50
On 1885 silver dime: $1,175.00
I'm very happy with two of the three. On the other one I have a slight buyer's remorse (due the price, not the item itself).
well, I won the lot I was most interested in, an HK-601a Albany BiCentennial MS66. I already have a White metal example but this one looks fantastic. there were quite a few other I followed and had bids on but things went past them pretty quick. then I misjudged the time and came back to the PC three lots too late for another one I was gonna bid on, an Ohio Agricultural medal in bronze that had great color.
this auction looked like it was almost exclusively NGC material, no doubt because many/most of the medals were slabbed prior to the PCGS entry. any guesses as to how long before some PCGS slabs start to show up??
If anything, I'll simply crack my medal out of the NGC tomb.
Mint medals in plastic is pure heresy !
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
On silver dime blank: $1,057.50
On 1885 silver dime: $1,175.00
I was the underbidder on both pieces. No sour grapes: They are definitely cool. But how do you value exonumic pieces of an already esoteric non-coin series? 3x the high estimate was all I could muster. Bravo to the winnar!
Interestingly, I did pick up the 3rd of the three pieces I bid on.
HK-374 is the aluminium version of these 1909 Hudson pieces from Elder.
The example I won just now on HA is the pop top. Of the 70 pieces graded here and ATS, this is the one and only MS65--with none higher. And I got it for a fraction of my high bid: $352.50 with the juice.
--Severian the Lame
I've had a chance to look at the So-Called Dollars book since you post. The rarity numbers for the Bryan dollars seem suspect to me. It claims that the 1896 Gorham pieces are R-5's which translates to 76 to 200 known. That is only one step higher than the rarity ratings for the Tiffany pieces.
There is no way that estimate is correct. Those pieces are readily available at the major shows and far more common than the Tiffany pieces with the blank reverse. There has be at least 5 or 6 hundred of the 1896 Gorham pieces, and there are probably more than that.
I totally agree. We have a lot more information than we did when the book was published 8 years ago. I'd say now that HK-780 and HK-781 are R-3, HK-783 and HK-786 are R-4, HK-777, HK-782 and HK-785 are R-5. You can quibble a bit about the exact splits (high R-3 versus low R-4, etc) but the NGC populations break pretty cleanly into three tiers, and my records for auction appearances line up similarly.
For those following along, the 1896 Gorham pieces are HK-780 and HK-781. R-3 has a range of 501-2000 pieces, so that works out nicely for "at least 5 or 6 hundred of the 1896 Gorham pieces, and there are probably more than that".
On the other hand, there is a huge range in the R-5 / R-6 rarities. If you somehow knew there were exactly 200 of something, it would be considered R-5 by that scale. If you somehow knew there were exactly 21 of another piece, that would be R-6 -- a one-point difference in the rarity scale despite a 10x difference in population. That's mostly a moot point since we'll never know populations that exactly. It's a reminder, though, that you can tie yourself in knots if you try to read too much into things.
Out of curiosity, are the strong sales prices happening because so-called dollars are listed in the new Redbook.... or is there something else happening in the market ?
Not sure, but that's certainly an exciting development. Here's the E-Sylum article. Thanks to Jeff "SoCalledGuy" Shevlin for making this happen.
On silver dime blank: $1,057.50
On 1885 silver dime: $1,175.00
Hope one person bought the both of them.
I think it's tied more closely to the venue/show that the auction ran with, the fact that there is such a large grouping of Exonumia standing alone and the mere quality of much of what's being offered. we can gripe all we want about the various auction companies, but Heritage has made great strides in their photograph, presentation and the way they market. those things contribute more for a successful sale than a mention in the RedBook.
I was actually surprised to get a catalogue from Heritage. they clearly knew I was a collector of this stuff and wisely targeted me. to be honest, I wouldn't expect the average buyer of the RedBook to suddenly become interested enough in this sort of stuff to start buying at a major auction.
If I really like the piece, I'll bid as strong as I can based on how much $$ I have available at the time.
Heritage makes that easy because I knew about the items I wanted about a month in advance. Not unusual for a coin auction, but compare that to coin shows, dealer stock, or eBay when you find out about a piece and need the $$ to buy it immediately.
--Severian the Lame
--Severian the Lame