Tungsten filled AGE's

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Meltdown
Meltdown Posts: 9,283 ✭✭✭✭✭
in Precious Metals
The seam should be visible inside the reverse rim with a good 10X loupe. Thanks for the warning to keep an eye out for these altered coins.

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  • derryb
    derryb Posts: 38,604 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    So, what led the buyer to the discovery they were altered?

    Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat

  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Now that is different... and a lot of work....wish I could examine one in hand. Any magnification pictures of the edge?? Cheers, RickO
  • Coin Finder
    Coin Finder Posts: 7,805 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    What was the tell?

    The court jester does not play, but gently pulls the strings…

  • TwoSides2aCoin
    TwoSides2aCoin Posts: 45,216 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The scheming mind knows no clear path to an honest days work for an honest days' wage.
  • ShadyDave
    ShadyDave Posts: 2,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: Meltdown

    I shop I frequent had a guy call last week with 5 AGE's he wanted to sell. He locked in the price over the phone and showed up about an hour later.

    3 of them ended up being milled & filled with Tungsten. Looks like a pretty damn good job too. 1 of them even passed their spectro-anaylizer thing.

    All of them ring pretty dead with the ping test... They confiscated the 3 and the guy who is a fairly regular buyer/seller swore he knew nothing.

    I took some crappy phone pics but these are real AGE's with the Tungsten superglued inside... When snapped together tight, you can't really see the seam, they're pretty damn legit looking.





    It looks like the weight is 34 grams (as seen in picture above) would be the easiest giveaway. Depending on the quality of the workmanship, the seam or cuts could be another obvious giveaway.



    What I'm interested in knowing is what the "spectro-anaylizer thing" is....is it a Sigma Metalytics Precious Metal verifier?
  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Obviously these could be all across the country, but where did this particular case happen?
    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: ShadyDave

    Originally posted by: Meltdown

    I shop I frequent had a guy call last week with 5 AGE's he wanted to sell. He locked in the price over the phone and showed up about an hour later.

    3 of them ended up being milled & filled with Tungsten. Looks like a pretty damn good job too. 1 of them even passed their spectro-anaylizer thing.

    All of them ring pretty dead with the ping test... They confiscated the 3 and the guy who is a fairly regular buyer/seller swore he knew nothing.

    I took some crappy phone pics but these are real AGE's with the Tungsten superglued inside... When snapped together tight, you can't really see the seam, they're pretty damn legit looking.





    It looks like the weight is 34 grams (as seen in picture above) would be the easiest giveaway. Depending on the quality of the workmanship, the seam or cuts could be another obvious giveaway.



    What I'm interested in knowing is what the "spectro-anaylizer thing" is....is it a Sigma Metalytics Precious Metal verifier?




    Standard weight 33.931 grams of 22KT gold. A reading of 34 grams on a scale like that is not going to show anything.





    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    What was the weight of the tungsten plug? That will show how much 22kt gold is missing.
    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • keets
    keets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It looks like the weight is 34 grams (as seen in picture above) would be the easiest giveaway.



    weight is actually 33.931, why would a difference of .069 on a store scale be an easy giveaway??
  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: CaptHenway

    What was the weight of the tungsten plug? That will show how much 22kt gold is missing.


    So would weighing the remaining gold without the plug.
    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • Coin Finder
    Coin Finder Posts: 7,805 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    A AGE should ring when hit on the rim, if it did not that could be a tell....

    The court jester does not play, but gently pulls the strings…

  • asheland
    asheland Posts: 24,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: TwoSides2aCoin
    The scheming mind knows no clear path to an honest days work for an honest days' wage.


    Very true!

    My YouTube Channel

  • BAJJERFAN
    BAJJERFAN Posts: 31,659 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: PerryHall

    The seam should be visible inside the reverse rim with a good 10X loupe. Thanks for the warning to keep an eye out for these altered coins.




    Also the reeds would have to line up exactly, if anyone bothered to look.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • derryb
    derryb Posts: 38,604 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    since gold is heavier than tungsten it would seem that more tungsten would have to be added than gold that was removed. When it comes to comparing tungsten weight to gold weight (they are very close) scale accuracy is paramount. If the accuracy of the scale pictured is not in question, then the difference in what was measured and what it should have been would have been an indicator that further analysis/visual inspection was necessary. Detecting tungsten filled bullion requires a very precise and accurate quality scale.

    Also the reeds would have to line up exactly, if anyone bothered to look.

    Pics appear to indicate coin was machined just inside the reverse rim, not on the edge.

    Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat

  • Meltdown
    Meltdown Posts: 9,283 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The machining was just on the inside of the reverse. You can see the seem in the photos because the coin was forced open. As I understand it, it was nearly invisible when brought in and the plug was super glued inside. The machining was very precise/professional.

    Also, they did not "ping" like a real eagle does... I tried it myself, they just sounded dead.
  • derryb
    derryb Posts: 38,604 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    So, how did the buyer initially determine there was a problem with them?

    Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat

  • Meltdown
    Meltdown Posts: 9,283 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    They test everything. 2 of them did not pass their analysis machine and 3 of the 5 did not ping.
  • derryb
    derryb Posts: 38,604 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: Meltdown
    They test everything. 2 of them did not pass their analysis machine and 3 of the 5 did not ping.

    Was the analysis machine a sigma PMV? Testing everything is a good thing.

    Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat

  • Meltdown
    Meltdown Posts: 9,283 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yes it was.
  • derryb
    derryb Posts: 38,604 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: Meltdown
    Yes it was.

    My experience with the sigma is to test both sides of a coin or multiple locations on a bar and to do so with more than one probe. If enough gold thickness was left on the side of the coin that was read by the sigma, then the sigma would not see a problem. I like the sigma, so far.

    Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: derryb

    since gold is heavier than tungsten it would seem that more tungsten would have to be added than gold that was removed. When it comes to comparing tungsten weight to gold weight (they are very close) scale accuracy is paramount. If the accuracy of the scale pictured is not in question, then the difference in what was measured and what it should have been would have been an indicator that further analysis/visual inspection was necessary. Detecting tungsten filled bullion requires a very precise and accurate quality scale.



    Also the reeds would have to line up exactly, if anyone bothered to look.


    Pics appear to indicate coin was machined just inside the reverse rim, not on the edge.




    The seam could appear on either the obverse or the reverse. The way this type of alteration works (think the two-headed or two-tailed magician coins), they destroy, by grinding out, the reverse of Coin A to leave a cup with the obverse and the reeded edge intact; they destroy the obverse of Coin B to leave a reverse and the reeded edge intact, and then they cut Coin C in half, remove the reeded edges and grind the obverse and reverse faces as thin as they can and then match them up with the appropriate tungsten-filled cups.



    TD
    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • Baley
    Baley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Yeah, this event is not going to improve liquidity of AGEs

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,749 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: Baley

    Yeah, this event is not going to improve liquidity of AGEs




    I doubt this will stop anyone with a quality 10X loupe and a brain from buying AGE's. Of course buyers will actually have to take the time to examine the AGE's before they buy them.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: derryb

    since gold is heavier than tungsten it would seem that more tungsten would have to be added than gold that was removed. When it comes to comparing tungsten weight to gold weight (they are very close) scale accuracy is paramount. If the accuracy of the scale pictured is not in question, then the difference in what was measured and what it should have been would have been an indicator that further analysis/visual inspection was necessary. Detecting tungsten filled bullion requires a very precise and accurate quality scale.



    Also the reeds would have to line up exactly, if anyone bothered to look.


    Pics appear to indicate coin was machined just inside the reverse rim, not on the edge.




    The density of tungsten is 19.25. The density of pure gold is 19.30, but since it is alloyed gold the density of the alloy is approx. 17.5. Thus the tungsten takes up less volume than the gold alloy removed, perhaps leaving room for the glue on either side of the tungsten.



    TD
    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • hchcoin
    hchcoin Posts: 4,843 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It never ceases to amaze me the crazy things criminals will do. Good catch by the shop owner. Thanks for sharing and providing pictures. Being a coin dealer sure comes with some risks. Theft, armed robbery, doctored coins, counterfeit coins, counterfeit metal. Makes me think about the thread a week or so ago on the coin forum where someone was asking about pricing coins who wanted to be a dealer. Hope they think about these types of things as well.
  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    You know how the fake silver bars are usually sold in plastic shells? I'll bet these will be offered in Capital Plastic holders or some other kind of holder that is a nuisance to open so you can check the coin.

    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • Meltdown
    Meltdown Posts: 9,283 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The tungsten plug weighed 22grams.
  • PerryHall
    PerryHall Posts: 47,749 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: CaptHenway

    You know how the fake silver bars are usually sold in plastic shells? I'll bet these will be offered in Capital Plastic holders or some other kind of holder that is a nuisance to open so you can check the coin.





    You should be able to examine the inside rim for a seam with a 10X loupe even if it's in a clear plastic holder. The ring test would be a little more difficult though.image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: Meltdown

    The tungsten plug weighed 22grams. That's all I learned today when I stopped in.




    Thanks. So just under 2/3rds of the gold is gone.
    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • Timbuk3
    Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Thanks !!!
    Timbuk3
  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: CaptHenway

    You know how the fake silver bars are usually sold in plastic shells? I'll bet these will be offered in Capital Plastic holders or some other kind of holder that is a nuisance to open so you can check the coin.





    Or fake slabs.
    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • ricko
    ricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Looking at the process described by CaptHenway, it is a lot of work... not sure the profit margin is really worth it.... Cheers, RickO
  • Coin Finder
    Coin Finder Posts: 7,805 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Tungsten seems like it would difficult to work with... It is a very dense heavy metal.

    The court jester does not play, but gently pulls the strings…

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Despite the splunge, 2/3rds of an ounce of gold is still over $800. That's a pretty hefty gross profit.
    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • Meltdown
    Meltdown Posts: 9,283 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Hey guys. I decided to take down the posting for now while the matter is still being dealt with.
    The post was meant to be cautionary & informational.
  • derryb
    derryb Posts: 38,604 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Originally posted by: Meltdown
    Hey guys. I decided to take down the posting for now while the matter is still being dealt with.
    The post was meant to be cautionary & informational.

    That it was. Keep us posted of further developments.

    Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat

  • CaptHenway
    CaptHenway Posts: 34,164 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Just curious as to how tight that seam is. What would happen if you took a small beaker of water with a drop of dishwashing detergent in it to break up the surface tension and stood the coin on edge in the beaker? Would air bubble out of the seam at the top as water leaked into the coin?



    TD
    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.

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