Pogue IV CAC or NO CAC?
MrEureka
Posts: 24,416 ✭✭✭✭✭
Has anybody here compiled a list of CAC results for Pogue IV? Care to share here and save us all some effort?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Comments
Latin American Collection
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Why aren't the stickers on the slabs this time?
Cuz when you go 7/9, it adds value. 2/9 subtracts value. Just my WAG.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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I went through through all of Pogue IV this morning (barring me entering some certs incorrectly) 31 of the 63 coins received stickers. The 1804 $1 and 1822 $5 DID NOT receive stickers. Of the half dollars in the sale, 4/11 received stickers. Of the early dollars, 2/9 received stickers- the two that did were the two MS-66 1795 $1's. Only 1/4 of the Gobrecht were stickered, that one being the 1838 in PR-64+. For the $5 gold, 24/37 stickered. The 1833 PR and 1835 PR pieces did sticker, as well as both 1829 $5s, the 1831 in MS-67 also stickered, the 1825/4 stickered; however, the 1832 12 stars in MS-63 did not sticker. Finally, the lone 1838 $10 in MS-63 did not sticker.
Thanks for providing this information. Interesting that for this group at least, the gold stickered at a much higher rate than the silver.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Recognizing that an early dollar set is very difficult to complete all CAC, I still am extremely disappointed in the differences in opinion on quality between JA and the Pogues' numismatic advisors. I had expected to strongly compete on many coins in the set - and haven't done so.
With early dollars your assessment of quality is probably as good as anyone else's, so why does it matter whether a coin is CAC if you like the coin and think it is solid or nice for the grade?
Why aren't the stickers on the slabs this time?
Cuz when you go 7/9, it adds value. 2/9 subtracts value. Just my WAG.
So I guess what you don't know can hurt you.
Recognizing that an early dollar set is very difficult to complete all CAC, I still am extremely disappointed in the differences in opinion on quality between JA and the Pogues' numismatic advisors. I had expected to strongly compete on many coins in the set - and haven't done so.
With early dollars your assessment of quality is probably as good as anyone else's, so why does it matter whether a coin is CAC if you like the coin and think it is solid or nice for the grade?
It doesn't once I've taken a second and third look and asked better experts if it's doctored in a way that I don't recognize.
But prices realized don't lie very often about quality.
When you pay the kind of money that these coins demand, it's in your best interest to get as many unbiased, expert opinions as you can get.
Yep. Any hard earned money is better spent when expert opinions are factored into the decision
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I don't get the sticker game. The coins are what they are -- either you like the coin or you don't. Not sure why everyone cares so much about JA's personal opinion of coins. It's a bizarre game.
Dunno. Maybe it's because he's a better grader than me or you or 99.9% of the dealers and collectors out there?
Shrug
I don't get the sticker game. The coins are what they are -- either you like the coin or you don't. Not sure why everyone cares so much about JA's personal opinion of coins. It's a bizarre game.
Dunno. Maybe it's because he's a better grader than me or you or 99.9% of the dealers and collectors out there?
Shrug
I think you are selling John short
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Just put your hand up for the 1822 $5 and keep it up. Not that hard.
The Early dollar set and second Gobrecht set are different - I started ithem after CAC was created. I have on occasion purchased non CAC certified Early and Gobrecht dollars that I like and I'm sure aren't doctored. For instance, JA doesn't like friction on the cheek and that doesn't bother me so much. One Gobrecht stickered later so my opinion on that coin was validated. On an Early dollar, it was far and away the finest I'd seen of the date and it wasn't doctored so I didn't care about the non sticker for friction.
I bought my seated and trade dollars before CAC. When I submitted them, I went 18/18 on the Trades and 43/44 on the Seateds. Not bad.
The Early dollar set and second Gobrecht set are different - I started ithem after CAC was created. I have on occasion purchased non CAC certified Early and Gobrecht dollars that I like and I'm sure aren't doctored. For instance, JA doesn't like friction on the cheek and that doesn't bother me so much. One Gobrecht stickered later so my opinion on that coin was validated. On an Early dollar, it was far and away the finest I'd seen of the date and it wasn't doctored so I didn't care about the non sticker for friction.
This is what I had in mind when I made my comment. I take it now that there are reasons others than those that the Pogue coins were not stickered.
Were you ticked about that one that failed?
I bought my seated and trade dollars before CAC. When I submitted them, I went 18/18 on the Trades and 43/44 on the Seateds. Not bad.
The Early dollar set and second Gobrecht set are different - I started ithem after CAC was created. I have on occasion purchased non CAC certified Early and Gobrecht dollars that I like and I'm sure aren't doctored. For instance, JA doesn't like friction on the cheek and that doesn't bother me so much. One Gobrecht stickered later so my opinion on that coin was validated. On an Early dollar, it was far and away the finest I'd seen of the date and it wasn't doctored so I didn't care about the non sticker for friction.
This is what I had in mind when I made my comment. I take it now that there are reasons others than those that the Pogue coins were not stickered.
Because Pogue is no fan of CAC.
I bought my seated and trade dollars before CAC. When I submitted them, I went 18/18 on the Trades and 43/44 on the Seateds. Not bad.
The Early dollar set and second Gobrecht set are different - I started ithem after CAC was created. I have on occasion purchased non CAC certified Early and Gobrecht dollars that I like and I'm sure aren't doctored. For instance, JA doesn't like friction on the cheek and that doesn't bother me so much. One Gobrecht stickered later so my opinion on that coin was validated. On an Early dollar, it was far and away the finest I'd seen of the date and it wasn't doctored so I didn't care about the non sticker for friction.
This is what I had in mind when I made my comment. I take it now that there are reasons others than those that the Pogue coins were not stickered.
Because Pogue is no fan of CAC.
If I went 2/9 on Early dollars, I wouldn't be a fan either. lol
Were you ticked about that one that failed?
No, I just downgraded it to the appropriate grade and then it stickered. I'd rather have a PQ+ set than a maxxed out set.
Look at the prices realized on the two PCGS MS65 1795 Flowing Hair dollars. I paid over 50% more than those for my MS64+ [ex NGC65]. Which coin is going to command respect?
I bought my seated and trade dollars before CAC. When I submitted them, I went 18/18 on the Trades and 43/44 on the Seateds. Not bad.
The Early dollar set and second Gobrecht set are different - I started ithem after CAC was created. I have on occasion purchased non CAC certified Early and Gobrecht dollars that I like and I'm sure aren't doctored. For instance, JA doesn't like friction on the cheek and that doesn't bother me so much. One Gobrecht stickered later so my opinion on that coin was validated. On an Early dollar, it was far and away the finest I'd seen of the date and it wasn't doctored so I didn't care about the non sticker for friction.
This is what I had in mind when I made my comment. I take it now that there are reasons others than those that the Pogue coins were not stickered.
Because Pogue is no fan of CAC.
If I went 2/9 on Early dollars, I wouldn't be a fan either. lol
He opted out of the game. Good for him.
I bought my seated and trade dollars before CAC. When I submitted them, I went 18/18 on the Trades and 43/44 on the Seateds. Not bad.
The Early dollar set and second Gobrecht set are different - I started ithem after CAC was created. I have on occasion purchased non CAC certified Early and Gobrecht dollars that I like and I'm sure aren't doctored. For instance, JA doesn't like friction on the cheek and that doesn't bother me so much. One Gobrecht stickered later so my opinion on that coin was validated. On an Early dollar, it was far and away the finest I'd seen of the date and it wasn't doctored so I didn't care about the non sticker for friction.
This is what I had in mind when I made my comment. I take it now that there are reasons others than those that the Pogue coins were not stickered.
Because Pogue is no fan of CAC.
If I went 2/9 on Early dollars, I wouldn't be a fan either. lol
He opted out of the game. Good for him.
Really? I bet that all the coins Akers advised him on stickered...
I paid more for my MS64+ 1795 Flowing hair dollar than his two MS65's realized ....prices realized rarely lie about the quality of a coin at auction
I bought my seated and trade dollars before CAC. When I submitted them, I went 18/18 on the Trades and 43/44 on the Seateds. Not bad.
The Early dollar set and second Gobrecht set are different - I started ithem after CAC was created. I have on occasion purchased non CAC certified Early and Gobrecht dollars that I like and I'm sure aren't doctored. For instance, JA doesn't like friction on the cheek and that doesn't bother me so much. One Gobrecht stickered later so my opinion on that coin was validated. On an Early dollar, it was far and away the finest I'd seen of the date and it wasn't doctored so I didn't care about the non sticker for friction.
This is what I had in mind when I made my comment. I take it now that there are reasons others than those that the Pogue coins were not stickered.
Because Pogue is no fan of CAC.
If I went 2/9 on Early dollars, I wouldn't be a fan either. lol
He opted out of the game. Good for him.
Really? I bet that all the coins Akers advised him on stickered...
Yes, really. And if your further point is that Akers had a great eye,
completely agree. Beyond that, there is no correlation between Aker's eye and a CAC sticker. Aker advised on a coin, CAC advises on a slab.
I went through through all of Pogue IV this morning (barring me entering some certs incorrectly) 31 of the 63 coins received stickers. The 1804 $1 and 1822 $5 DID NOT receive stickers. Of the half dollars in the sale, 4/11 received stickers. Of the early dollars, 2/9 received stickers- the two that did were the two MS-66 1795 $1's. Only 1/4 of the Gobrecht were stickered, that one being the 1838 in PR-64+. For the $5 gold, 24/37 stickered. The 1833 PR and 1835 PR pieces did sticker, as well as both 1829 $5s, the 1831 in MS-67 also stickered, the 1825/4 stickered; however, the 1832 12 stars in MS-63 did not sticker. Finally, the lone 1838 $10 in MS-63 did not sticker.
Thanks!
BTW, I've been told by a credible source that the 1804 $1 and 1822 $5 were never sent to CAC.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
BTW, I've been told by a credible source that the 1804 $1 and 1822 $5 were never sent to CAC.
Why would they even need to be? The PF68 1804 is the conceded finest known and the 1822 is the only specimen known in public possession. Any stickers would serve no real purpose. Do we need a sticker on J-1776 when it appears for sale next time around to bring "top dollar?"
He opted out of the game. Good for him.
I paid more for my MS64+ 1795 Flowing hair dollar than his two MS65's realized ....prices realized rarely lie about the quality of a coin at auction
Honest question... did you see the Pogue coins as exceptional or at least solid for a lower grade or were they coins which would never sticker regardless of the grade.
Latin American Collection
I went through through all of Pogue IV this morning (barring me entering some certs incorrectly) 31 of the 63 coins received stickers. The 1804 $1 and 1822 $5 DID NOT receive stickers. Of the half dollars in the sale, 4/11 received stickers. Of the early dollars, 2/9 received stickers- the two that did were the two MS-66 1795 $1's. Only 1/4 of the Gobrecht were stickered, that one being the 1838 in PR-64+. For the $5 gold, 24/37 stickered. The 1833 PR and 1835 PR pieces did sticker, as well as both 1829 $5s, the 1831 in MS-67 also stickered, the 1825/4 stickered; however, the 1832 12 stars in MS-63 did not sticker. Finally, the lone 1838 $10 in MS-63 did not sticker.
Thanks!
BTW, I've been told by a credible source that the 1804 $1 and 1822 $5 were never sent to CAC.
I wondered about that, I wouldn't be surprised if that is true.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
And on this one exception all my advisors agree that the coin is overgraded.
One problem with the Pogue coins is that he bought many NGC coins that normally never should cross at PCGS. I sold him one myself in 2000 that came out of an old PCGS 64 holder and (over)graded 66 at NGC.
And it seems many of them now crossed.
CAC also is not a guarantee really, but it can give you a hint to review a coin a second time before you bid, as something might be wrong with the grade or the coin.
Is it hard to know if the non-CAC are overgraded or have some other problem with them? May be good for CAC to have problem codes like PCGS?
It either passes or does not. Sometimes John will put a sticky on the returned coin saying PVC but it certainly is not tracked for all to look up.
BTW, I've been told by a credible source that the 1804 $1 and 1822 $5 were never sent to CAC.
Why would they even need to be? The PF68 1804 is the conceded finest known and the 1822 is the only specimen known in public possession. Any stickers would serve no real purpose. Do we need a sticker on J-1776 when it appears for sale next time around to bring "top dollar?"
I raised this about the Newman coins as well. I like CAC and Bill Shamhart is a valued friend of mine, but I wonder about the wisdom of sending these collections to CAC and by that I mean Pogue and Newman and Gardner. It seems that if everyone knew that these big-time collections had not gone to CAC, the total auction value might have been higher as all coins would have been unstickered.
some big time collections in the nineties were sold unslabbed, right? Was that a good idea at the time?
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
BTW, I've been told by a credible source that the 1804 $1 and 1822 $5 were never sent to CAC.
Why would they even need to be? The PF68 1804 is the conceded finest known and the 1822 is the only specimen known in public possession. Any stickers would serve no real purpose. Do we need a sticker on J-1776 when it appears for sale next time around to bring "top dollar?"
I raised this about the Newman coins as well. I like CAC and Bill Shamhart is a valued friend of mine, but I wonder about the wisdom of sending these collections to CAC and by that I mean Pogue and Newman and Gardner. It seems that if everyone knew that these big-time collections had not gone to CAC, the total auction value might have been higher as all coins would have been unstickered.
some big time collections in the nineties were sold unslabbed, right? Was that a good idea at the time?
Considering the substantially greater role sight-unseen internet bidders now play in auctions, I would think that it is a no-brainer for consignors to fully process their coins at the third and fourth party grading services before they are sold. Sad but true.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Thanks for the response and you are no doubt right for most ordinary mortal consignors -I just wonder if the same generalizations apply for the once in a decade collections like Pogue and Gardner and Newman. Since Newman's coins were NGC, it might be a different rationale and they felt they had to go to CAC, but Pogue and much of Gardner were PCGS. I also wonder what percentage of such coins are purchased sight unseen. At some price level, the sight seen buyers must start to dominate the bids (although I don't claim to know where that price threshold is).
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
I went through through all of Pogue IV this morning (barring me entering some certs incorrectly) 31 of the 63 coins received stickers. The 1804 $1 and 1822 $5 DID NOT receive stickers. Of the half dollars in the sale, 4/11 received stickers. Of the early dollars, 2/9 received stickers- the two that did were the two MS-66 1795 $1's. Only 1/4 of the Gobrecht were stickered, that one being the 1838 in PR-64+. For the $5 gold, 24/37 stickered. The 1833 PR and 1835 PR pieces did sticker, as well as both 1829 $5s, the 1831 in MS-67 also stickered, the 1825/4 stickered; however, the 1832 12 stars in MS-63 did not sticker. Finally, the lone 1838 $10 in MS-63 did not sticker.
Thanks!
BTW, I've been told by a credible source that the 1804 $1 and 1822 $5 were never sent to CAC.
Interesting. I've been told by a credible source that they were reviewed by CAC.
I was also told that at least one of the series was never sent in to CAC, but based on the above, this does not seem accurate.