First Strike/early release hype on the 100th anniversary Mercury
Bikingnut
Posts: 3,425 ✭✭✭✭
I haven't posted on here in a very long time. As I understand it, the entire run of 125,000 Mercury's were minted at the same time. So how can any of them be designated first strike (I've already seen that add) or early release?
Can someone explain with an answer that has some logic to it? In my opinion, it's nothing but hype.
Dennis
Can someone explain with an answer that has some logic to it? In my opinion, it's nothing but hype.
Dennis
US Navy CWO3 retired. 12/81-09/04
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
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This has been discussed leading some (the ethically compromised) to nausea, lightheadedness and digestive issues.
The PCGS First Strike program designates coins issued in the first 30 days of the Mint's release. This designation not only adds value to modern coins, but takes modern coin collecting to another level with multiple Mint releases each year.
THERE ARE TWO WAYS TO OBTAIN THE FIRST STRIKE DESIGNATION
1) The package mailed to PCGS has a postmark date prior to the PCGS cutoff date for that particular coin/issue. Only the coins need to be mailed to PCGS and received within the first 30 days of issue.
2) Submit the coins in the original unopened shipping box from the U.S. Mint with a postmark date prior to the specified PCGS cutoff date.
There is an additional $18 Fee per coin for the First Strike Designation. For additional information contact Customer Service at 800-447-8848.
The First Strike Designation can also be obtained through the PCGS Bulk Program (restrictions apply). See our Bulk Submission Guides for further information.
Of course it adds value. But it's value that is made up, not real. And again, with the entire 125,000 minted, all you have is a label put on the holder by PCGS or NGC that says first strike. You could have a first strike coin label and it could have been the last one struck.
It's like selling a classic car and claiming the original owner was someone like John Wayne which would obviously command a higher premium, but having no way to prove it.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
For example : Look at mitchs offer on the bst for a 70 uhr PL fs, He can offer 15k(on behalf of a client I'm sure) because the label says MS70PL FS, but can sell the same coin with out the FS designation for only 5k. (would be surprised if they happen to come from same run)
'First Strike" - It's what collectors want! It's as simple as that. Often times in the past, when I tried to suggest a collector consider the non-First Strike version of a coin for a fraction of the price, I have been met with the response (paraphrasing) "If you want to keep the First Strike coins for yourself Mitch, just say so". You should see the hoops BOTH dealers and collectors jump through to secure the "First Strike" designation at PCGS. For better or worse, it does not look like it is going anywhere all too soon. It is a super strong PCGS brand and now (nearly) everyone knows it (who handles modern coins). It's a strong component in my view of PCGS' current market cap of $160,000,000.00 as a company! That market cap is not there as a result of simply grading Dimeman's material (no offense intended to Dimeman).
If the designation is "silly", will someone PLEASE make an easy $10,000 and sell me (sight-seen) a 2009 UHR grading PCGS-MS70PL FS this weekend! I'll even give you a similar coin without the First Strike designation (PCGS-MS70PL) and a check for $10,000 for your PCGS-MS70PL FS specimen if you don't want to part with your coin and have a "hole in your collection".
Perhaps more later.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Do you think that when the vast majority of the coins are FS eligible and there are large numbers of FS 70s available they still bring big premiums? If so do you have some examples?
First Strike, PCGS or Early Release, NGC?
IMO, NGC has the more correct label. Early Release is more inline with the word, "issued". Issued in the first 30 days from the US Mint. Issued is not an equivalent word for "First Strike". No where in PCGS's definition is PCGS saying, the coins they encapsulate with the "First Strike" label are coins that were the very first struck off the US Mint coin presses. It's a play of words that is confusing people and causing them to pay ex-orbited prices for coins with the label. But not all are disconcerted over the label. In fact, PCGS is not at fault at all. They're not selling the coins once they are encapsulated.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Well, everybody gets to spend their money on what they like. Bottom line is like Keyman64 says....."If it's not fun it's not worth it!".
Wondercoin.
Totally bogus
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
There in lies the problem. Just because they were released in the first thirty days, doesn't mean they are first strike, especially for this coin. I would say something else, but I don't want to chance being banned from the forum.
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
Here's a question, Is this a true statement, when used in a listing selling a pcgs First strike coin? " First strike coins are produced using the first dies forged by the mint in a particular series. Use of these first dies typically results in a higher quality strike and finer details."
No
So in the long run my guess is that a FS or ER label won't make a significant difference with the gold dimes (unless there is some big screw up/ delay with the mints release of the coins) If you're the average collector and you were very lucky enough to get a box of ten, the big question is will you get enough 70s to pay back the FS label premium ($180 for ten coins) when you sell your extras. In the initial frenzy cracked 69's put back in OGP may bring more than FS/ER 69's .
Wondercoin.
Edited to add.. I agree with your comment on the dimes.... After all, the coins are BIN on ebay at $475 right now for PCGS-SP70FS. Making it impossible for there to be a $500 differential for FS.
Now, show me one PCGS GRADED 70 that sold for that level in non-FIRST STRIKE please.
Wondercoin.
Here's a question, Is this a true statement, when used in a listing selling a pcgs First strike coin? " First strike coins are produced using the first dies forged by the mint in a particular series. Use of these first dies typically results in a higher quality strike and finer details."
No
Actually the statement is true, "First strike coins are produced using the first dies forged by the mint in a particular series. Use of these first dies typically results in a higher quality strike and finer details."
But if it reads in the same sentence, 'Coins PCGS has encapsulated with their "First Strike" labels, are produced using the first dies forged by the mint in a particular series. Use of these first dies typically results in a higher quality strike and finer details." This would be a false statement.
The US Mint came out long ago that they don't make any effort to ship the first coins struck to its first customers orders for their products. It's most likely they place many coins/stock in storage before they receive their special packaging. Coins struck first enter the back of the storage area. The coins struck last are entered last, burying the first struck coins. When they start packaging them for delivery, the last struck coins are packaged and shipped first before they get to the last of the stock but first struck coins. This isn't rocket science.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Wondercoin
Leo... I think you summed it up nicely, although I really have no clue whether the Mint actually grabs from the very top of the production pile to ship first, the middle or the bottom. I can certainly visualize grabbing from the top.
Wondercoin
First, I need to correct all of you. The Mint may make the product, but they DO NOT SELL THE PRODUCT. There is no "production pile". I am not even sure where the final product is put together anymore. It used to be the coins were shipped encapsulated to PBGS and they put the final product together, but lately I've been seeing the mint themselves are putting the coins in the final packaging. But more to the point, the Mint boxes the product up from their production facility (in this case WP) and then ships it to the Memphis distribution facility.
It is ridiculous to think that PFSWeb in Memphis would somehow try to keep any of the product in any sort of collated order when receiving the product from the mint, or distributing the product in some sort of ordered fashion after sales starts. And unless there is only one person filling orders in Memphis, I visualize a great number of boxes of product, each at a pick line to fill orders at the same time, negating any sorted order what-so-ever.
And since the mint used 66 die pairs for the 125K dimes, there should be 66 sets of relatively fresh strikes (there's an assumption), but these would be staggered through the production, about every 2000 coins if they only used one press. The use of multiple presses would even further randomize where these early strikes would reside in the final distribution.
(The wording above is specific to the dime, but is true for any Mint release.)
Not to disparage our host here, but First Strike is bogus. Early Release is more truthful, but is still dubious.
And now that I've said all that, if you're going to play the label game, then you need to play the game. Those two words on a label will probably bring a premium, so if you plan on selling one day, it's probably in your best interest to submit in the first 30 days. That's just the reality of how it is.
(Is it really 3am? sheesh...)
Wondercoin
Backroad ... It sort of IS disparaging in that PCGS clearly defines what it means by 'First Strike" (even on its holders now). Namely ... "Delivered Within First 30 Days of Initial Release". Plain and simple.
Wondercoin
Backroad ... I believe the US Mint does "sells the product". They may use agents, various locations, etc., but in the end the US Mint is in the business of both making the product and selling it. No?
Wondercoin
A fullfillment company (like PFSWeb and PBGS (aka Novitex) before it) takes the orders and fills them on behalf of their client. They are the ones that actually sell the product. When you order something on the mint website (or by telephone I believe), you are not dealing with the mint, but PFSWeb.
It's something akin to the automobile biz, where the car manufacturers doesn't really sell cars to the public, though the fullfillment company does it on a fixed cost basis, and isn't doing it for a profit per piece sold.
Now, the mint may have a special arrangement with PFSWeb to handle their own distribution facility (since we are talking small, high priced items), but the return address isn't the US Mint (or more accurately the Treasury Department) on the packages.
"Not to disparage our host here, but First Strike is bogus."
Backroad ... It sort of IS disparaging in that PCGS clearly defines what it means by 'First Strike" (even on its holders now). Namely ... "Delivered Within First 30 Days of Initial Release". Plain and simple.
Wondercoin
Okay, granted. Our hosts may define it that way, but words do have meaning, and are being exploited for their common definition by many of the flippers out there.
And don't you think they added the "Delivered within the first 30 days" specifically because the term "First Strike" has a different meaning than "delivered within a set time frame"?
I really don't want this seen as an anti-PGCS rant, since it isn't one. I simply see it as part of the label game for those who wish to play it. After all, the real reason PCGS and NGC exist is to grade and authenticate coins.
2) FS $2800 auction
3) FS $3069 auction
4) ER offer less than $3000 BIN
The next two sold were brown label NGC - No ER - for $2995 BIN
So yes you are correct as no blue PCGS have sold since January. But I stated that the ER/FS label carries little to no premium for the 15W APE and 11P revPR ASE and recent eBay sales bear that out. The eBay numbers also seem to support that over time for these two coins (immediate sell outs) that there is little difference in sale price for PCGS vs NGC ( with the exception of "rare" labels signed by various people )
Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
What more is there to discuss?
Wondercoin.
Bikingnut... Yes, of course. It is a great example of buying a holder (and a coin). But, isn't that essentially what are esteemed board member Oreville does when he slaps down $2,000 or $2,500 to buy a black NGC holder with a $20 coin in the holder? And, I could go on with a laundry list of other examples (of buying the holder and the coin) that board members cheer about when the happy buyers come forward on here with stories of their purchases.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
To a lot of people (including me) modern commems have no interest at all and the EXTRA amount for First Strike is just plain silly and a waste of money. I guess what gets me the most is knowing what I could buy with the money spent on this stuff.
But doesn't money spent by other collectors on moderns mean less money spent competing with you for the coins you want?
I like MS/PR69 First Strikes: little or no premium to raw, attractive label, and the extra fee for this designation means that the original submitter thought that the coin had a chance at receiving a 70.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Would Mr. Spock collect First Strike coins?
I think the only "LOGICAL" answer to this question is YES,,,
Why,,,,, because for the $18 initial cost for a 1st Strike label on most coins regularly return many multiples of that cost to the owner upon the sell of the coin.
Also the American Flag looks really good and shows your support for the country we are all so lucky to live in.
12:28 update:
To better state what I was trying to above it is a matter of money,,,,,
The $18 for a 1st Strike Label pays for itself,,,,,,,
it pays for it in the selling price and since the collectors want it the coin sells easier than a regular label coin.
,,,,, because for the $18 initial cost for a 1st Strike label on most coins regularly return many multiples of that cost to the owner upon the sell of the coin.
Only if it's a 70. For grades 69 and below, the First Strike label carries little or no premium.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
JDDimmick... A couple comments to your point:
'First Strike" - It's what collectors want! It's as simple as that.
No, it's hype. It's as simple as that.
It's also one reason (among others) why this hobby continues to contract.
Do I want the 1899th coin from Die 1 that was sent out on Day 4, or do I want the 1st coin from Die 45 that was sent out on Day 35?
I knew it would happen.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
What Dpoole said!
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Scary to read that i am "esteemed!"
LOL
@oreville....."Scary to read that i am "esteemed!""...Is that almost as good as First Strike??? I think you should put that in your sigline......
Cheers, RickO
The coin is beautiful...........but I don't think any of them will come back with FSB's. A design oversight, maybe?
The lack of FB was brought up when the design was first released...design oversight? Doubt it. Probably a deliberate snub to the collector...IMO. ANYONE with any knowledge of Mercury Dimes KNOWS that the FB is a highly sought after design element.
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I have to believe that the money some pay for a FS designation on Bullion ASE's with a Special Label buying just one coin would be better spent buying a whole role of the same ASE's. A good example would be the 08 ASE's with the 07 reverse, would you rather have one FS or two rolls of the same coin at the same cost? I think the answer to that question is obvious.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.