apmex has ms 66 pcgs saint gauden around same price cac pcgs ms 65 + saint gauden
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pcgs ms 66 saint gauden or ms 65+ cac saint gauden
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Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
If selling, I'd expect to have an easier time of it with the 65+ CAC coin.
If buying, I'd rather see the coins, then decide. At this level, their value is enough above melt that I'd be hesitant to treat them as a simple fungible commodity.
If selling, I'd expect to have an easier time of it with the 65+ CAC coin.
This.
Buying a 'gem' Saint needs to be done on a sight-seen basis, or at least one with a solid return privilege. As noted above, a CAC bean will help as far as liquidity is concerned.
Unless you have personally seen (in hand) lots of say, generic Saints, the difference between a low end 66 and an all there-high end 65 may not be all that meaningful to you even if the coins are properly graded. If you are looking at generic coins, there are ones with very nice green/rose/orange toning that can be had for no more than a dipped-out coin.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
6 is still > 5 right?
www.brunkauctions.com
I'd say that a CAC 65 is generally the equal of a generic and unstickered 66, many of which are just 65's any ways. CAC rejects about 85-90% of all MS65/66 Saints....so no surprise than a 65+ CAC could easily be nicer than a generic MS66. From what I saw a few years ago when looking at lots of 66's, the CAC 65's were very often just as nice.
In a rising gold market, the generic MS66 may be the better buy. During the 2009-2011 run up in gold (and in gem $20's), we saw CAC premiums shrink. In a declining gold bullion market the CAC premiums tend to expand. Correctly pick the "market" direction and that should help decide the OP's question. The premiums on generic MS65/66 $20 Saints in general have dramatically shrunk over the past year. I'd probably pick the 66 over the 65+ CAC for a longer term hold as long as it was decent for a "generic" 66. If the 65+ was a decidedly better coin, I'd be tempted to take that. I've seen a lot of doggy generic 66's, some of which I'd grade 64+.....yet, I've never seen a doggy CAC 65 or CAC 66...fwiw.
6 is greater than 5.....except when it comes gem $20 Saints.
I'd say that a CAC 65 is generally the equal of a generic and unstickered 66, many of which are just 65's any ways. CAC rejects about 85-90% of all MS65/66 Saints....so no surprise than a 65+ CAC could easily be nicer than a generic MS66. From what I saw a few years ago when looking at lots of 66's, the CAC 65's were very often just as nice.
Latin American Collection
An assumption based on their business model is that photos of the CAC'd coin are available whereas the 66 has nothing but a standard photo. If assumption is correct then the CAC 65+ wins if you like it.
Edit: Whoa! I hadn't looked at these lately and had no idea 65's were this cheap: APMEX Saints
http://www.apmex.com/product/6...s#sthash.EesUT8KZ.dpuf
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The assumption that all things are equal gets tricky. Typically, the only thing you know for certain are current market conditions and not what they will be down the line. On one hand, one could argue that because the wholesale buy is the same (or within 1%) of one another. On the other hand, one has been recognized as having a higher grade by PCGS.
The question then comes what is your plan for the coin. Is it just a widget you may sell in the near term. Is it part of your gold holdings for the mid term? Is it a coin you may upgrade in the future? Is it there for the long term? Those questions may complicate matters because what does the future hold for the market. In an irrationally exuberant market, the MS66 will be more valuable because the CAC sticker would likely lose it's importance. In a severely depressed market, the CACed piece would likely be preferable because the demand is much more selective. I think the current status of the market is pretty clear.
The last question is the very long viability of CAC. CAC is great because of JA. Unlike the TPG who have what could be considered succession plans, JA is CAC. Yes there are others who look at coins. But what if some day in the future, JA decides to move from Jersey to some tropical island and live out his days on the beach with a drink with an umbrella and not work his tail off? What then? Sure there are lots of CAC coins and multiple market makers, but what would happen if we knew there would be no new coins with stickers? May JA be well and thrive, but we are all human.
So the moral of the story is have fun, buy the coin you like and unlike golf, this hobby you can get money back in the end.
If buying, I'd rather see the coins, then decide. At this level, their value is enough above melt that I'd be hesitant to treat them as a simple fungible commodity.
If selling, I'd expect to have an easier time of it with the 65+ CAC coin.
Cheers
Bob
That a coin has a sticker is no guarantee I will like it. On big ticket material like this I make my decision on a sight seen basis like at a show. Obviously one would wonder if the 66 issues are a group of coins that did not sticker.
Interesting. I don't buy above the grade on the holder nor sell below the grade on the holder. For the 1924 Issue PCGS shows the MS65+ at 2000 and the MS66 at 2400.
Does the price guide have a column for stickers as well? The sticker is what usually adds the majority of the premium to this coin, not so much the + sign. That sticker designates the coin as only 1 or 2 out of 10 that "passed."
I have frequently sold $20 Saints for prices well above their assigned grade level (ie up to 1 to 1-1/2 grades higher). I have also offered to pay next grade up at times and been refused. I would agree that 80-90% of what commonly trades in the slabbed market is based on the assigned grade and current price guide values for that grade. JA is operating in the top 5-15% of the Saint market.
Yeah, I know. It goes against the grain of many here. But...
...that's just my eversohumble opinion.
Cheers
Bob
Like some other Forum members, I have been collecting coins for ca. 50 years. During that time, I have seen additional, intermediate grades appear and these are now widely accepted. Then more incremental grades, plus grades, stickers. Yes, it's all about money and the system might crash at some point in the future. As a buyer, I think the situation has moved beyond silly to aggravating at times. I also realize that I will benefit when I sell pieces from my collection. There are still areas where third-party grading is still in its infancy (or non-existant) and the grading 'game' isn't as onerous.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
many ms66 saints would not sticker as ms65's.
Thanks Joe. You summed up in 8 words what I was trying to say in several paragraphs.
And worse yet, some of those 66's if cracked out, wouldn't even grade 65 on the next time through.
First, people were paying a premium for holders. Now they're paying a premium for stickers. What will the industry conjure up next in an effort to con collectors out of even more money?
Lets not forget what occurred in the 1960-1986 period. That was when you could easily pay 5X to 10X what a coin was worth (ie buying a AT'd or cleaned slider and paying gem money). It happened all the time at local coin shops in all our regions. I'd say that 90% of the transactions conducted in that period could be called a "con." These days you might overpay by 20-50% on the majority of classic rare coins. That sure beats 500-1000%. While far from perfect, it is an improvement. I'd have been happy to pay a 10-20% "premium" in my very early years to avoid getting ripped off...which occurred more times than I'd care to admit. Seeking out a "JA" or a quality mentor could have prevented that. But sometimes, you have to watch the "mentor" too.
(okay, I'm kidding)