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Error experts: Questions about EARLY off-center Lincoln Cent
cmerlo1
Posts: 8,056 ✭✭✭✭✭
I picked this 1917-D cent up at a show yesterday for a very reasonable price. The coin is gorgeous- the photos don't show it, but there is underlying luster on both sides.
I have questions about it though. First, is it a genuine off-center? To me, it appears so based on what I know about them, and based on other O/C coins I own. Second are the 'bumpy' patches on the reverse, particularly 'ATES' and 'CA'. They are raised (not pitting), and are the same brown color of the coin. As a collector of Morgan VAMs, I'm very familiar with rusted dies, and that's exactly what this looks like. I don't ever recall, though, hearing about any rusted dies being found on Lincoln cents, and am curious if this can be found in the series.
Any opinions on this coin would be appreciated!
I have questions about it though. First, is it a genuine off-center? To me, it appears so based on what I know about them, and based on other O/C coins I own. Second are the 'bumpy' patches on the reverse, particularly 'ATES' and 'CA'. They are raised (not pitting), and are the same brown color of the coin. As a collector of Morgan VAMs, I'm very familiar with rusted dies, and that's exactly what this looks like. I don't ever recall, though, hearing about any rusted dies being found on Lincoln cents, and am curious if this can be found in the series.
Any opinions on this coin would be appreciated!
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
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in that regard... it does look like the result of a rusted die on the obverse, but Fred W.
would be the best to judge that. Nice find...Cheers, RickO
1. nothing i see to suggest it isnt authentic.
2. it is pitting, of the die and cool and probably not common as ive not seen it that extensive for a lincoln, not that it adds value.
3. nice and probably very tough date for o/c, especially in this state of preserve.
4. the "damage" around the rim in places is probably all from the collar/dies during the o/c striking process.
5. nice newp!
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1. nothing i see to suggest it isnt authentic.
2. it is pitting, of the die and cool and probably not common as ive not seen it that extensive for a lincoln, not that it adds value.
3. nice and probably very tough date for o/c, especially in this state of preserve.
4. the "damage" around the rim in places is probably all from the collar/dies during the o/c striking process.
5. nice newp!
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fwiw, i am pretty sure ive seen strong pitting on virtually all us coin types and decade.
exceptions (for me) include but may not be limited to, 3cn, 3sc and maybe a couple gold issues but i'd make a strong wager it can be found on all bs issues.
patterns, specimen, pr/pf, satin proof, brilliant, chapmen, etc aside. much scarcer on these if not not-existent on some type completely.
tough to encumber all types with general statements. i should be careful.
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I've seen a few 1916,17,18,19,20 Philly coins O/C, but can't recall ever seeing a 17-D.
I'm thinking it is much scarcer, but just a WAG on my part.
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I picked this 1917-D cent up at a show yesterday for a very reasonable price. The coin is gorgeous- the photos don't show it, but there is underlying luster on both sides.
I have questions about it though. First, is it a genuine off-center? To me, it appears so based on what I know about them, and based on other O/C coins I own. Second are the 'bumpy' patches on the reverse, particularly 'ATES' and 'CA'. They are raised (not pitting), and are the same brown color of the coin. As a collector of Morgan VAMs, I'm very familiar with rusted dies, and that's exactly what this looks like. I don't ever recall, though, hearing about any rusted dies being found on Lincoln cents, and am curious if this can be found in the series.
Any opinions on this coin would be appreciated!
Its called an uncentered broadstruck and here's a 71 I own
[URL=http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/stash38/media/A017 - 20151213_122233 2_zpszn28har1.jpg.html]
Article
Here's a good article on the difference between " Off Centered " and " Uncentered "
Article
Thanks for the link! I figured since the 'L' in 'LIBERTY' was cut off, it was off-center...
Here's a good article on the difference between " Off Centered " and " Uncentered "
Article
Thanks for the link! I figured since the 'L' in 'LIBERTY' was cut off, it was off-center...
I can still see the " L " in LIBERTY .
I think it should be uncentered, but I'm no expert by far ...
Here's a good article on the difference between " Off Centered " and " Uncentered "
Article
Thanks for the link! I figured since the 'L' in 'LIBERTY' was cut off, it was off-center...
It's right on the borderline, and I would give it the benefit of the doubt and call it off-center because of that missing L. Won't argue with those that say otherwise.
TD
It's genuine, it's 5% off center, imo, and yes,
it's a much scarcer date/mm than the P mints
of that era.
I also believe, absence what the reverse 'stuff' is,
it would 'straight grade' with no problems.
The schmutsum on the reverse could easily be corrosion
that acetone won't take off.
good call on thinking about un-centered b/s. those tend to be more desirable and they do slip my mind occasional when viewing what looks like o/c coins. it didnt occur to me since the metal past the L is not there and diameter looks normal. imo
after reading that page, again lol, it makes me wonder how a coin can go much past 10% o/c and not be a u.c.b. it seems the collar would be pushed out of the way in some direction. collars must be quite thin and/or have some major flexible connections.
just something doesnt sit right with me about the flan, dies and collar not being lined up w/o causing major damage to a coin called o/c.
the collar is out of the way for u.c.b. so there is some major play/flexibility in the parts of the collar. otherwise the coin would be mangled or the collar would be busted.
would love to see good images of a few collars.
since we are going full-bore on this one, i will say those "lathe?" lines in the right obv field and head/face are peculiar.
can we get close-ups of a couple of those rev big patches of "pitting". i've had goup fool me before, even with a coin in-hand.
also, could you reupload the images at 900 to 950 wide. unless it is a huge inconvenience.
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good call on thinking about un-centered b/s. those tend to be more desirable and they do slip my mind occasional when viewing what looks like o/c coins. it didnt occur to me since the metal past the L is not there and diameter looks normal. imo
after reading that page, again lol, it makes me wonder how a coin can go much past 10% o/c and not be a u.c.b. it seems the collar would be pushed out of the way in some direction. collars must be quite thin and/or have some major flexible connections.
just something doesnt sit right with me about the flan, dies and collar not being lined up w/o causing major damage to a coin called o/c.
the collar is out of the way for u.c.b. so there is some major play/flexibility in the parts of the collar. otherwise the coin would be mangled or the collar would be busted.
would love to see good images of a few collars.
since we are going full-bore on this one, i will say those "lathe?" lines in the right obv field and head/face are peculiar.
can we get close-ups of a couple of those rev big patches of "pitting". i've had goup fool me before, even with a coin in-hand.
also, could you reupload the images at 900 to 950 wide. unless it is a huge inconvenience.
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This is the best magnification I can get with my camera:
I'm thinking about hitting it with a little acetone to see what happens.
Here are the original images, 925 wide:
Schmutsum???
ty for uploading narrower images. i was hoping to shrink the larger images a bit as they cause the text to go too far over and my tablet is only like 1388x760 or whatever.
no worries. i get the point.
if acetone doesn't get the stuff off, send me original, unedited images from your camera and i'll work my magic with the image(s). oldcollectorcoins@gmail.com
it is a big deal to know what is on the rev is the only reason i'm pressing.
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tx for the images.
gotta be die pitting.
here is one similar to yours i sold a while back.
looking at some different die images, the collar is not part of the die or is it?
thought for sure that a collar was a separate piece, not a collar of the die(s) like a collar on a shirt?
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They can be 3 inches in diameter or larger, with
a hole in the middle - for the planchet to seat itself
properly in the collar, in anticipation of the two dies
coming together.
If the planchet doesn't fit completely INTO the collar, and is struck,
you'll get either a Partial Collar Strike ("RailRoad Rim"), and if
the planchet is laying totally on TOP of the collar, it will be Broadstruck,
as there is no collar to prevent the 65-85 tons of pressure from forcing
the metal into the recesses of the Dies, like a normal coin strike.
Some out-of-the-collar Broadstrikes are centered, some are uncentered,
and in many cases, on Type 1 Blanks, which are just a bit larger than
a Type 2 Planchet with an Upset Rim.
It's more or a metallic doughnut than a shirt collar.
Hope this helps a bit....
It's more or a metallic doughnut than a shirt collar.
Hope this helps a bit....
yes. affirmation of what i thought and i appreciate it.
seeing some dies with big lips going well above the die surface, around the edge made me wonder if there was/were a collarless setup.
i doubt a little lip could withstand that repeated pressure.
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What is especially interesting about this piece specifically, are the (de)lamination marks on the un-struck portion of the coin's reverse.
I own maybe five or six collar dies from the San Francisco Mint, however I do not have them photographed, unfortunately. There is a seller on ebay who has quite a few and has been selling them for a couple years. They came from the huge batch of cancelled dies that were released in the late 1960s.
It's Off Center as a portion on the L in Liberty in missing.
For 1917 Denver errors are far tougher the San Fransisco.
Although the San Francisco planchets come wood grained due to mixture all the Denver's I've handled have been fine.
The reverse was not struck from rusted dies as if you look at the flan (blank non struck portion) it's brittle, flaky, and ready to delaminate.
I feel the reverse has mild environmental damage from either improper storage or exposure to a acidic substance.
Do NOT use Acetone on this as the reverse is porous.
I'm calling Fred out! I've been looking everywhere for this word and knowing Fred's a Southern California boy I even looked in the 'Jeff Spicoli Dictionary of Beach Slang'. Nada. Zip. Zilch. This's bugging the heck outta me!
What the %$#&* is "SCHMUTSUM"?
schmutz
[shmoo ts]
Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun, Slang.
1.
dirt; filth; garbage
'schmutsum' is from the root word "schmutz'.
ie; dirt, filth, garbage, or, as I use it - 'stuff'.
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Over the last 25 years, I have picked up some error coins of that date.
I can say that the Philadelphia issue is by far the most common for errors.
I have a few D's & S's. They do show up every so often.
Edited to add a few images...
These are the most dramatic O/C's I have from 1917...
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