Can we talk about Luster?

Catbert · December 6, 2015 1:12AM

I think most here understand mint luster and the cartwheel effect. However, can it be seen on coins that are less than EF-40? Even at EF-40, we are talking about traces.

I've seen a few collectors describe what they see as luster in lesser graded coins. I am dubious. Should I be?

Nap · December 6, 2015 1:15AM

I suspect that some coins in VF with luster are either poorly struck EF or impaired coins that have been net graded.

I don't think it's impossible for a high end VF coin to have luster though, as VF is a fairly large grade range.

keyman64 · December 6, 2015 1:38AM

The lowest graded silver coin I have seen with real luster is XF45. Maybe a little in XF40 but anything below that, I think people are using too much imagination.

stman · December 6, 2015 1:51AM

I've seen real luster in lower grades than 40. And I also understand some are graded wrong due to weak strike. The problem I see, and much more lately, is coins in AU and mid AU without much luster whatsoever. And mainly with no field luster.

For me if no field luster in high AU = no buy.

TomB · December 6, 2015 2:01AM

My experience is that a great many collectors, though not only collectors, will use the term "luster" when in fact they are talking or writing about "shine" and that the "shine" is, at least from time-to-time, from a previous dip or cleaning. However, the pool of collectors and dealers who participate on this forum, and even similar ones, is also generally more experienced in this field than those who do not participate in any forum and, as such, I do not witness it here as much as I do in coin shops or at coin shows when more casual collectors walk the floor.

So, can luster be on a coin that grades less than EF40? I think so, but it isn't always obvious and I don't think it can cover large surfaces. As an example, I purchased a raw 1805 DBH back in 1998 and graded the coin as VF30. It was then sent to PCGS, again in 1998, and they also graded the coin VF30. I still have the coin and one reason I kept it is because I believe it has true luster within the star points on the obverse. These areas were protected from the general wear pattern on the coin and show actual luster when rotated. Of course, this is likely less than 2% of the surface area of the coin, but I do believe it is true luster.

MilkmanDan · December 6, 2015 3:22AM

Originally posted by: TomB

My experience is that a great many collectors, though not only collectors, will use the term "luster" when in fact they are talking or writing about "shine" and that the "shine" is, at least from time-to-time, from a previous dip or cleaning. However, the pool of collectors and dealers who participate on this forum, and even similar ones, is also generally more experienced in this field than those who do not participate in any forum and, as such, I do not witness it here as much as I do in coin shops or at coin shows when more casual collectors walk the floor.

So, can luster be on a coin that grades less than EF40? I think so, but it isn't always obvious and I don't think it can cover large surfaces. As an example, I purchased a raw 1805 DBH back in 1998 and graded the coin as VF30. It was then sent to PCGS, again in 1998, and they also graded the coin VF30. I still have the coin and one reason I kept it is because I believe it has true luster within the star points on the obverse. These areas were protected from the general wear pattern on the coin and show actual luster when rotated. Of course, this is likely less than 2% of the surface area of the coin, but I do believe it is true luster.

This sums it up well. And we've all seen polished coins advertised as "lots of luster" on eBay. Shiny doesn't always mean mint luster.

Flatwoods · December 6, 2015 3:30AM

Originally posted by: TomB

My experience is that a great many collectors, though not only collectors, will use the term "luster" when in fact they are talking or writing about "shine" and that the "shine" is, at least from time-to-time, from a previous dip or cleaning. However, the pool of collectors and dealers who participate on this forum, and even similar ones, is also generally more experienced in this field than those who do not participate in any forum and, as such, I do not witness it here as much as I do in coin shops or at coin shows when more casual collectors walk the floor.

So, can luster be on a coin that grades less than EF40? I think so, but it isn't always obvious and I don't think it can cover large surfaces. As an example, I purchased a raw 1805 DBH back in 1998 and graded the coin as VF30. It was then sent to PCGS, again in 1998, and they also graded the coin VF30. I still have the coin and one reason I kept it is because I believe it has true luster within the star points on the obverse. These areas were protected from the general wear pattern on the coin and show actual luster when rotated. Of course, this is likely less than 2% of the surface area of the coin, but I do believe it is true luster.

Good answer. I just purchased a coin this week. Oddly enough it is a DBH as well.

It is graded VF-30 but shows luster in protected areas.

If my camera software wasn't acting up I'd love to post it.

scubafuel · December 6, 2015 3:44AM

I own a capped bust quarter graded VF20 with original luster left in the reverse lettering of "United States". It's the lowest graded coin I can remember that shows mint luster. Usually anything resembling luster on VF coins are just the aftereffects of a dip and retone process.

steveben · December 6, 2015 3:55AM

how about some examples?

vf 30:

vf 30:

agree or disagree?

stman · December 6, 2015 3:58AM

That darn TomB sure can write and explain things like no other.

Flatwoods · December 6, 2015 4:01AM

Good examples steveben. The 1796 doesn't look like it would have any original luster left but the gold certainly does. It is hard to capture trace amounts of luster in a picture.

.

Here is a PCGS pic of my half. It has luster that rotates all the way around the stars on the obverse.

ricko · December 6, 2015 4:41AM

TomB described it well.... often the luster noted by those with less experience is mainly a

shiny surface.... One person at a show in Seattle showed me a Franklin half that had (IMO) been

buffed... and exclaimed repeatedly over the 'luster' it had.... Cheers, RickO

asheland · December 7, 2015 6:41AM

I've seen it as low as VF35

LanceNewmanOCC · December 7, 2015 6:45AM

Originally posted by: asheland

I've seen it as low as VF35

yup. ive seen it on coins i estimated as vf. not a common occurrance from my experience though.

.

roadrunner · December 7, 2015 8:15AM

VF 30 and higher coins should have luster on them. Just because we rarely see them anymore doesn't mean they didn't exist in quantity at one time. I can recall seeing an originally toned 1875-cc 20c piece about 10 years ago with Fine details....and maybe about 10% luster. The coin was weakly struck as most of them are. The seller graded it Fine, while the dealer who bought it (and showed it to me) called it a mid-VF. In any case it had luster. If it weren't for gradeflation and cleanings, there would be lots of VF (or even Fine) coins running around with some peripheral or interior detail luster. Luster is the last thing to go in the protected areas of the coin. If you don't clean it, expose it to harsh environments, then the luster usually remains.

BryceM · December 7, 2015 8:40AM

I have a 1798 Heraldic Eagle dollar in VF 30 that exhibits luster in a protected area of the eagle's wing. I'll take a look at it when I get home and see if I can get a photo to show how it looks in hand.

Stuart · December 8, 2015 2:37AM

Here's my descriptive nomenclature for coin field luster/reflectivity progression:

[Matte - Frosty - Satiny - Glossy - Semi-Prooflike - Prooflike (PL) - Deep Mirror Prooflike (DMPL) - Ultra Deep Mirror Prooflike (UDM)]

guitarwes · December 8, 2015 4:25AM

I've owned multiple Capped Bust Halves in mid-VF with original luster in the protected areas (i.e. in between the stars on the Obv, in the lettering on the Rev.).

Can we talk about Luster?

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