Should all at the Mint in Philadelphia be fired...

joeykoins · December 5, 2015 3:14AM

Hi guys, I was at my Dealer's store this morning discussing something that's really not thought of. Why is it that most, by far, but not all, errors and varieties are vastly from the Philadelphia Mint? All the way from the far past to now. The thing is, most are the biggies too! The major ones to the minor ones. You can make your own list. Too many to mention. Lets start with one of the well known of all, the 55 double die. Sure, like I said, there are also some from the other Mints as well.but NO comparison! Why do you suppose that is? Anyone want to explain what they think? Thanks in advance guys.-joey

winky · December 5, 2015 3:19AM

Idiots work there!!!!!!!!! Could that be it?

Broadstruck · December 5, 2015 3:32AM

There's actually not enough major errors coming out of any of the mints these days...

If it was up to me I wouldn't fire anyone but allow them to drink on the job

Especially the press operators who strike gold and proof silver coinage

joeykoins · December 5, 2015 3:38AM

Originally posted by: Broadstruck
There's actually not enough major errors coming out of any of the mints these days...

If it was up to me I wouldn't fire anyone but allow them to drink on the job

Especially the press operators who strike gold and proof silver coinage

joeykoins · December 5, 2015 3:43AM

The way our conversation got started (at my friend's shop) was by talking about all the 2009 Lincoln varieties from Phil. and only two at the Denver Mint. Over 100 to 2 ratio. Same you can say for the old '72 double die, 10 to 1. I can go on. Even the 1995 DD compared to the one rare 1995D double die.

AUandAG · December 5, 2015 3:44AM

Should re-open the New Orleans mint...they certainly had their share back in the day.

1888-o scarface

1888-o hot lips

bob

CaptHenway · December 5, 2015 3:48AM

I don't think that the person responsible for the 1955 Doubled Die cent works at the Mint anymore......

Broadstruck · December 5, 2015 3:50AM

Originally posted by: AUandAG

Should re-open the New Orleans mint...they certainly had their share back in the day.

1888-o scarface

1888-o hot lips

bob

Just die varieties as actual mint errors from the New Orleans mint are very rare.

Remember they didn't prepare all their own dies as they where cut in Philadelphia.

Rampage · December 5, 2015 5:22AM

These are varieties mentioned in this thread, not errors. Actual minting errors will happened. You cannot expect a person to sit there and do QA/QC on all coins minted. So, should they be fired, absolutely not. Just get better machinery, which the Mint did over a decade ago. Now, there are not as many major errors coming out of any of the mints these days.

bigjpst · December 5, 2015 5:28AM

I'm pretty sure there are tons of errors happening at the mint, just getting them out to sell has gotten more difficult.

winky · December 5, 2015 5:46AM

Originally posted by: bigjpst
I'm pretty sure there are tons of errors happening at the mint, just getting them out to sell has gotten more difficult.

Boy how true is that. Good quote.

cladking · December 5, 2015 6:16AM

I've wondered about this for many years.

It's not just errors made at Philly but the overall quality is horrendous. Almost across the board the standards are much lower; dies are used longer, they are less well adjusted, coins are scratched more, and errors are more common. The only place they seem comparable to Denver is in die hubbing. Remember though that San Francisco made poor quality as did New Orleans and Carson City. Also Philly isn't too much worse than some other world mints. To some extent it might be more true that Denver has superior quality rather than that Philly has poor quality.

Of course some mints (like Berne) have far higher quality than even Denver.

This has persisted so long it seems the difference may transcend even culture at the various mints. This difference is so dramatic that there will be more BU clad varieties from Denver than from Philly since Philly clads are so poorly made that few get saved at all.

It should also be noted that some of the finest coins come from the Philly mint. They don't do it right very often but once in a while it all comes together to make a spectacular Gem.

joeykoins · December 5, 2015 6:22AM

Originally posted by: Rampage
These are varieties mentioned in this thread, not errors. Actual minting errors will happened. You cannot expect a person to sit there and do QA/QC on all coins minted. So, should they be fired, absolutely not. Just get better machinery, which the Mint did over a decade ago. Now, there are not as many major errors coming out of any of the mints these days.

2009 Cents are a good example of recent mishaps.

keets · December 5, 2015 6:36AM

Why is it that most, by far, but not all, errors and varieties are vastly from the Philadelphia Mint? All the way from the far past to now.

part of the reason is that for a very long time Philadelphia struck the bulk of our coinage and until recently(1930's era) they also made all the dies. the former is self-explanatory, with the latter it is possible that the Mint only shipped dies which they had QA'd to a high degree, keeping anything questionable.

MedalCollector · December 5, 2015 7:25AM

Most varieties are so small that the Mint likely would not consider them as defective products. Additionally, the employees likely have less control over what's produced than you think - the issues likely arise from poor processes, machinery, etc.

That being said, I do believe there are differences in the type of actually 'defective' coins (errors, not varieties) produced between the two mints within the last decade or more. Philadelphia, for example, seems to have produced far more strike-errors than Denver has. Philadelphia also seems to have produced more strike-errors than planchet-errors. On the other hand, Denver seems to have produced more planchet errors than strike-erros. This is all based off of my observation though, nothing scientific.

Rampage · December 5, 2015 7:37AM

Originally posted by: joeykoins

Originally posted by: Rampage
These are varieties mentioned in this thread, not errors. Actual minting errors will happened. You cannot expect a person to sit there and do QA/QC on all coins minted. So, should they be fired, absolutely not. Just get better machinery, which the Mint did over a decade ago. Now, there are not as many major errors coming out of any of the mints these days.

2009 Cents are a good example of recent mishaps.

You mean the doubled fingers and whatnot? Those are not considered errors.

Unknown · December 5, 2015 8:14AM

This content has been removed.

Hydrant · December 5, 2015 8:41AM

Just fire the people in charge of coin design selection. The boys and girls on the shop floor are just taking orders from the top. Leave them alone.

Hydrant · December 5, 2015 8:41AM

.

leothelyon · December 5, 2015 10:43AM

Since Philadelphia cut the dies for Denver and SF, what significance is there to collect them? But it makes perfect sense how they did it, cutting the dies at one facility and sending them to the other mints. For Jefferson nickels, I have 3 EDS nickels where the trails of the cutting bit can be seen. The dates are 1940, 1950 and 1960. It's like they made 3 master dies in 1940 and had set aside the other two, to be used later, one every 10 years. In 1971, they made new master hubs.

Leo

duck620 · December 6, 2015 12:24AM

Originally posted by: Broadstruck
There's actually not enough major errors coming out of any of the mints these days...

If it was up to me I wouldn't fire anyone but allow them to drink on the job

Especially the press operators who strike gold and proof silver coinage

Sometimes I think the Mint knows before hand what's coming out in errors,varieties. Lets keep collectors happy.Let the searchers antisapate looking for new finds.

keyman64 · December 6, 2015 1:00AM

You can just as easily point the historical finger at the other mints when it comes to varieties, DDOs, RPMs, clandestine activity etc. As for what has happened in JUST the last 3-5 years, I am not sure that there is all that much that you can point to that would necessitate the firing of anyone.

TwoSides2aCoin · December 6, 2015 2:52AM

Was hoping for a mule , not a near date. Got a cow on a blind date, instead.

Don't ask where that came from

cladking · December 6, 2015 3:45AM

Don't ask where that came from

Horseplay in Denver results in a well made new type.

At Philly it results in a spectacular Gem.

Go figure.

ricko · December 6, 2015 4:50AM

I do not think anyone should be fired.... after all, it takes considerable effort and ingenuity

to sneak the REAL errors out of the mint (mistakes or engineered), and the minor varieties

are just process variations. Cheers, RickO

au58 · December 6, 2015 5:05AM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway
I don't think that the person responsible for the 1955 Doubled Die cent works at the Mint anymore......

But according to union records, he is still drawing a paycheck and paying dues.

Could the number of errors be due to the fact that Philadelphia produces more coinage than any other mint in the world?

What is the error RATE as a function of output?

joeykoins · December 6, 2015 12:38PM

Originally posted by: au58

Originally posted by: CaptHenway
I don't think that the person responsible for the 1955 Doubled Die cent works at the Mint anymore......

But according to union records, he is still drawing a paycheck and paying dues.

Could the number of errors be due to the fact that Philadelphia produces more coinage than any other mint in the world?

What is the error RATE as a function of output?

Could be? Let me just clear up something. I really didn't actually mean " anyone to be fired". I just wanted to over emphasize my message title. All in fun.

DeepCoin · December 7, 2015 1:03AM

Checking the mintages, the MINT produced over TWO BILLION cents in 2009 at all the facilities. There were varieties to be sure, but making that many of ANYTHING without flaw is virtually impossible. Collectors often forget how many coins the Mint produces in a year. I have seen the operation from the inside, at the floor level and the workers a quite conscientious. The scale of production is enormous.

ctf_error_coins · December 7, 2015 1:25AM

When I used to buy brand new boxes of rolled coins I would almost always buy "P" mint coins as the Denver's are just too nice.

mustangmanbob · December 7, 2015 1:51AM

Not errors, just NORMAL process variations. WE call them errors, the mint says, (Valley Girl Accent On) Whateeeeeevvvvvvver.

I was a manufacturing manager for 25+ years. Except for the broadstruck, clipped, etc., not much would have triggered an ERROR alarm. ALL of the 2009 Lincoln's: zzzzzzzzzzz The normal question of what constitutes a defect: "Does it meet the customer specifications? IMHO, only a very few of the coins that are dubbed ERROR meet the definition of not meeting the customer's expectation. (Joe average on the street, since they are the customer the mint is targeting, not coin collectors).

My area made semiconductors. Literally BILLIONS of transistors (and other devices) on an area the size of a dinner plate. On very LARGE scale chips, not something that you would find in a desktop computer or phone, our defect rate, by design, was over 50% because they were designed to run HOT, meaning, very fast. But hot meant they would burn themselves out, or fall off one of many process cliffs, and never even turn on. The particular customer paid for everything started, knowing their requirements pushed past the limit of technology, but whatever survived was really good stuff.

Many industries TRY to have a GOAL of 6 sigma. That is a Good versus bad rate of 99.99966%, that’s for centered Sigma, If you take into account shift, Then the number drops to 99.865% but still equates to 3.4 ppm . I seriously doubt the Mint is investing in tooling that is even 6 sigma capable.

cmerlo1 · December 7, 2015 2:59AM

I've always thought, at least as far as the 20th century is concerned, that there were periods at the mint where more major doubled dies (I define these as strongly doubled and sought by collectors) were produced more than others, and have wondered if it could be tied to someone's tenure there:

1916-1918

1934-1937

1941-1951

1955-1961

1968-1973

1980-1984

I realize that probably isn't the case, but I've always found it interesting. I also know that there were doubled dies outside those periods (the 1964 Kennedy half, for which there are a LOT from both mints for example) but the periods above seem have a much more concentrated number of them.

joeykoins · December 7, 2015 3:03AM

Yes, I see what you mean. I work at Ford Stamping Plant where we punch out several parts(doors,fenders,hoods,...etc.)by dies as well. When they want a quick turn around of a specific part. They run the press fast and furious too, as you mentioned, "HOT". When this takes place it tends to run defects. Then, when a few get out undetected, this miscue will lead to certain write-ups by the supervisors. Sure, I admit we don't run a billion parts in one run as the Mint does. If so, I'm pretty sure Ford would be more lenient as the Mint is to their workers. It just amazes me most mishaps are from the Philadelphia Mint? Oh well, I guess they're not perfect at the Mint, just as us, here at Ford?

au58 · December 7, 2015 8:03AM

Originally posted by: joeykoins
Yes, I see what you mean. I work at Ford Stamping Plant where we punch out several parts(doors,fenders,hoods,...etc.)by dies as well. When they want a quick turn around of a specific part. They run the press fast and furious too, as you mentioned, "HOT". When this takes place it tends to run defects. Then, when a few get out undetected, this miscue will lead to certain write-ups by the supervisors. Sure, I admit we don't run a billion parts in one run as the Mint does. If so, I'm pretty sure Ford would be more lenient as the Mint is to their workers. It just amazes me most mishaps are from the Philadelphia Mint? Oh well, I guess they're not perfect at the Mint, just as us, here at Ford?

Maybe those union employees at Ford who can't meet quality objectives should be fired too.

dpoole · December 7, 2015 8:13AM

The 2004 Hi Leaf-Low Leaf Wisconsin Quarter out of the Denver Mint was a lulu.

joeykoins · December 7, 2015 9:18AM

Originally posted by: au58

Originally posted by: joeykoins
Yes, I see what you mean. I work at Ford Stamping Plant where we punch out several parts(doors,fenders,hoods,...etc.)by dies as well. When they want a quick turn around of a specific part. They run the press fast and furious too, as you mentioned, "HOT". When this takes place it tends to run defects. Then, when a few get out undetected, this miscue will lead to certain write-ups by the supervisors. Sure, I admit we don't run a billion parts in one run as the Mint does. If so, I'm pretty sure Ford would be more lenient as the Mint is to their workers. It just amazes me most mishaps are from the Philadelphia Mint? Oh well, I guess they're not perfect at the Mint, just as us, here at Ford?

Maybe those union employees at Ford who can't meet quality objectives should be fired too.

Yeah, maybe?

CaptHenway · December 7, 2015 1:49PM

Originally posted by: cmerlo1

I've always thought, at least as far as the 20th century is concerned, that there were periods at the mint where more major doubled dies (I define these as strongly doubled and sought by collectors) were produced more than others, and have wondered if it could be tied to someone's tenure there:

1916-1918

1934-1937

1941-1951

1955-1961

1968-1973

1980-1984

I realize that probably isn't the case, but I've always found it interesting. I also know that there were doubled dies outside those periods (the 1964 Kennedy half, for which there are a LOT from both mints for example) but the periods above seem have a much more concentrated number of them.

I am sure that various clusters of doubled dies in any century or MPD's in the 19th Century are due to one particular employee not doing his job right during that particular time period in question. Might have been the son or nephew or godson or whatever of some higher Mint official in power at that time, whose shoddy work was covered up because he was "family."

joeykoins · December 7, 2015 11:15PM

WoW! I believe this was the first post that actually said someone at the Mint made a mistake?

Should all at the Mint in Philadelphia be fired...

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