Why weren't more twenty cent pieces used to make love tokens?

CaptHenway · November 18, 2015 2:56AM

They did circulate, so they were available, and they presented a large field to work on while being 20% cheaper than quarters which are not that hard to find engraved.

Any suggestions as to why they were not popular hosts for love tokens?

TD

asheland · November 18, 2015 2:58AM

Perhaps they didn't circulate as much as we would like to think?

Like Kennedy halves and Ikes. They made tons, but you typically don't see them under normal circumstances.

CaptHenway · November 18, 2015 3:35AM

I've bought a lot of them in over the counter at coin shops in Good to VG, sometimes Fine, and almost never in VF to AU.

TopographicOceans · November 18, 2015 4:11AM

Only Lord M knows for sure

MrHalfDime · November 18, 2015 4:15AM

While not my series, it would appear that at least some love tokens were made from twenty cent pieces, as seen in this chapter from the recent double dime book written by John Frost and Lane Brunner. Many of these are quite attractive, and made from high grade examples. To be sure, they are not encountered nearly as much as other denominations, particularly the Liberty Seated dime.

Unknown · November 18, 2015 4:25AM

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CaptHenway · November 18, 2015 4:37AM

Originally posted by: MrHalfDime

While not my series, it would appear that at least some love tokens were made from twenty cent pieces, as seen in this chapter from the recent double dime book written by John Frost and Lane Brunner. Many of these are quite attractive, and made from high grade examples. To be sure, they are not encountered nearly as much as other denominations, particularly the Liberty Seated dime.

Oh, they exist, but are few and far between.

Baley · November 18, 2015 4:38AM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

They did circulate, so they were available, and they presented a large field to work on while being 20% cheaper than quarters which are not that hard to find engraved.

Any suggestions as to why they were not popular hosts for love tokens?

TD

I'd think, because they were always somewhat of a novelty, and tended to be saved as such, because the total number of 20c pieces is dwarfed by the number of seated liberty quarters, the latter being more common would be more likely to be used as host coin for love tokens.

As far a them being found with extensive wear, you also see early off center coins, classic commemorative coins, and other oddities with significant wear. These were almost certainly pocket pieces carried and handled daily, rather than receiving the wear from years and years in cash transactions.

They were, like asheland mentions, Kennedies and Ikes and "golden dollars" today, curiousities that would tend to be pulled from circulation and saved when received, rather than respent for goods and services.

Still, some twenty cent pieces were made into love tokens, it would be interesting to know the relative numbers vs the other contemporaneous denominations

Dentuck · November 18, 2015 4:50AM

Perhaps Joe Lovestruck --- the humble man on the street,

who held his lady-friend dear but couldn't hire a professional

for a fancy carving --- found a dime to be more affordable

than a 20-cent piece.

Meanwhile the gentleman who had sufficient means to custom-order

a love token from his local jeweler --- Fauntleroy McFlutters, let's call

him --- would have found a 20-cent piece distasteful. He wouldn't

want to appear too cheap to go the whole nine yards and spring

for a quarter, or even a half dollar or silver dollar. Heck, maybe even

a gold coin, if she was a real looker.

This neither-here-nor-there "middle child" situation would have left

the 20-cent piece out in the cold.

planonit · November 18, 2015 6:14AM

Maybe because it had such a limited run people back then who had one came like 1877 saw it as more 'collectible' and less like to deface them??

UMCane · November 18, 2015 6:33AM

Here is the story I've heard...

Just as today congress was under the thumb of the wealthy (see Gadsen Purchase). There were some heavies out west who mined more silver than they could sell to the government for coinage. Add in the lobbyists and some cash and voila! The birth of the 20 cent coin and a new market for the Hearst family (Anyone here watch Deadwood?) The coins were absolutely hated by the public.

Here's my best double-dime 1875-S/S MS64 MPD FS-302:

winky · November 18, 2015 9:17AM

Only God knows for sure.

oih82w8 · November 18, 2015 11:13PM

Sweet Double Dime...with a double variety!

asheland · November 19, 2015 3:27AM

Nice one, UMCane!

astrorat · November 19, 2015 3:56AM

PM sent

UMCane · November 19, 2015 5:38AM

Thank you sirs,
I wish the coin was a bit "cleaner". The reverse also has a heck of a die crack from 1 to 8:30

Seated coins across the board are moving up this year in price. My budget did not allow for a MS Seated Dollar.

Modern coinage does nothing for me. Too much crapola from the mint every year. 19th century coinage is all class, even the obsolete 1/2, 2, 3 cent pieces. #2 on my list are the art deco pieces from the 20's - 30's...Merc, SLQ, WLH & Peace Dollar.

But if you have a few bucks on hand a Double Dime is not a bad place to park it, plus it has a good story line.

God I miss Al Swearagen

Justacommeman · November 19, 2015 11:21AM

God I miss Al Swearagen

So does Mr Woo

mark

Julian · November 19, 2015 11:45AM

Probably the same percentage of twenty centers as seated quarters, which have millions of coins. Twenty centers, probably less than 1% of seated quarters.

lordmarcovan · November 19, 2015 3:10PM

Boy, I'd love to get my hands on a nice 20c love token.

Unknown · November 19, 2015 3:54PM

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Overdate · November 19, 2015 4:44PM

Before 1875 many quarters were made into love tokens, while no twenty cent pieces were. After 1876, the 20-cent pieces remaining in circulation would have been found in progressively lower grades, which would make them less suitable as love tokens. Meanwhile, Liberty Seated quarters continued to be struck for 15 years after production of twenty cent pieces ceased, so people wishing to engrave love tokens would have found higher-grade quarters much easier to obtain for that purpose.

MrEureka · November 19, 2015 5:05PM

One more thing to consider is that love tokens may not have been as popular on the west coast, where the vast majority of 20 cent pieces were struck, and where most probably circulated. (Excluding the 75-S, mintages were tiny.) I have no reason to believe that, but it's possible.

BillJones · November 19, 2015 10:12PM

Compared to the number of Liberty Seated Quarters that were issued, the number of Twenty Cent Pieces was very low. The total mintage numbers for the Seated Quarters from 1840 to 1891 was 154,159,590. Now to be sure a fair number of those quarters were melted to make later dated Seated Quarters, but the total mintage was impressive. In contrast the total mintage for the Twenty Cent piece was only 1,349,840. That works out to a ratio of 114 quarters for each Twenty Cent Piece!

In addition, I might be wrong about this, but my perception is that love tokens were sort of an east coast thing. The vast majority of Twenty Cent pieces were minted at the San Francisco and Carson City Mints.

CaptHenway · November 19, 2015 11:46PM

Andy and Bill, the point about 20 centers being a West Coast thing and love tokens being an East Coast thing is very interesting. I also appreciate the observations that the total mintage of the 20 is less than 1% that of the 25, and that they were only available new for a year or two.

Thanks, everybody!

TD

UMCane · November 20, 2015 6:16AM

Re: Mr. Woo

you know, they never did finish that series. HBO took so long to decide on how many episodes in the final season that the actors disbursed to other projects (Justify).

I really wanted Hearst dead.
Long live Al.

messydesk · November 20, 2015 6:36AM

Julian's explanation makes sense. Also, and this is purely speculation, perhaps the derided, doomed double dime was said to be bad luck for a love token. The more reasons to hate on an unpopular coin the better, right?

CaptHenway · November 20, 2015 7:30AM

Originally posted by: Overdate

Before 1875 many quarters were made into love tokens, while no twenty cent pieces were. After 1876, the 20-cent pieces remaining in circulation would have been found in progressively lower grades, which would make them less suitable as love tokens. Meanwhile, Liberty Seated quarters continued to be struck for 15 years after production of twenty cent pieces ceased, so people wishing to engrave love tokens would have found higher-grade quarters much easier to obtain for that purpose.

Serious question...has anybody ever seen a love token with the un-smoothed off side Uncirculated or very close to it?

In other words, did the carvers try to start out with high grade coins, or did they just use any decent coin out of change?

TD

CaptHenway · November 20, 2015 7:32AM

Originally posted by: messydesk

Julian's explanation makes sense. Also, and this is purely speculation, perhaps the derided, doomed double dime was said to be bad luck for a love token. The more reasons to hate on an unpopular coin the better, right?

Was the 20 cent piece ever considered to be bad luck, or hated like the Susan B. Anthony dollar was because it looked too much like a quarter? No speculation allowed! I want citations to articles!

TD

astrorat · November 20, 2015 8:39AM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

Originally posted by: Overdate
Before 1875 many quarters were made into love tokens, while no twenty cent pieces were. After 1876, the 20-cent pieces remaining in circulation would have been found in progressively lower grades, which would make them less suitable as love tokens. Meanwhile, Liberty Seated quarters continued to be struck for 15 years after production of twenty cent pieces ceased, so people wishing to engrave love tokens would have found higher-grade quarters much easier to obtain for that purpose.

Serious question...has anybody ever seen a love token with the un-smoothed off side Uncirculated or very close to it?

In other words, did the carvers try to start out with high grade coins, or did they just use any decent coin out of change?

TD

I have a few EF examples, but nothing higher.

astrorat · November 20, 2015 8:47AM

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

Originally posted by: messydesk
Julian's explanation makes sense. Also, and this is purely speculation, perhaps the derided, doomed double dime was said to be bad luck for a love token. The more reasons to hate on an unpopular coin the better, right?

Was the 20 cent piece ever considered to be bad luck, or hated like the Susan B. Anthony dollar was because it looked too much like a quarter? No speculation allowed! I want citations to articles!

TD

I have no idea about the perceived "luckiness" of the double dime. See this link for some quotes from newspaper articles/editorials on how the twenty-cent piece was confused with a quarter. I know there are additional articles/editorials as well.

lordmarcovan · November 20, 2015 4:23PM

Originally posted by: astrorat

See this link for some quotes from newspaper articles/editorials on how the twenty-cent piece was confused with a quarter. I know there are additional articles/editorials as well.

Thanks. I enjoyed reading those, and browsing around that site in general.

CaptHenway · November 20, 2015 11:57PM

Originally posted by: astrorat

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

Originally posted by: Overdate

Before 1875 many quarters were made into love tokens, while no twenty cent pieces were. After 1876, the 20-cent pieces remaining in circulation would have been found in progressively lower grades, which would make them less suitable as love tokens. Meanwhile, Liberty Seated quarters continued to be struck for 15 years after production of twenty cent pieces ceased, so people wishing to engrave love tokens would have found higher-grade quarters much easier to obtain for that purpose.

Serious question...has anybody ever seen a love token with the un-smoothed off side Uncirculated or very close to it?

In other words, did the carvers try to start out with high grade coins, or did they just use any decent coin out of change?

TD

I have a few EF examples, but nothing higher.

Thanks! Anyone else?

TD

Why weren't more twenty cent pieces used to make love tokens?

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