An Expensive Hot Potato

maibockaddict · September 23, 2015 12:18AM

I found this rather interesting. here is a 1795 o-125 AU55 that sold in the Gardner collection (to Sheridan Downey) last year for 22K

Heritage

He placed it in his MBS 41 this past August, where it hammered out 30k

MBS41

Whomever the new buyer was, sent it to PCGS on the Regrade service and lo and behold it has a Retail value of 80K!

Upcoming Heritage

So it went from a collector, then no collector has had enough interest in owning it and now it is going up for sale a third time and will likely sell for at least triple the initial buy price.... all in a year....

TURBO · September 23, 2015 12:27AM

Makes a person wonder.

oih82w8 · September 23, 2015 12:39AM

How in the world does it go from XF45 (1991) to AU55 (2014) to MS62 (Present Day)???

"1795 50C 2 Leaves, O-125, T-13, R.4, MS62 PCGS. This attractive and wonderfully toned Flowing Hair half dollar was purchased "raw" by a private collector in the mid-to-late 1980s. It was subsequently consigned to Bowers and Merena's Frontenac Sale in late 1991 as part of a notable collection of half dollars, where it appeared in an XF45 PCGS in an early holder..."

It's a really nice coin, but...c'mon! Grade inflation, poor lighting, porous surfaces, weak struck eagle breast, etc...

maibockaddict · September 23, 2015 12:45AM

<< How in the world does it go from XF45 (1991) to AU55 (2014) to MS62 (Present Day)???

"1795 50C 2 Leaves, O-125, T-13, R.4, MS62 PCGS. This attractive and wonderfully toned Flowing Hair half dollar was purchased "raw" by a private collector in the mid-to-late 1980s. It was subsequently consigned to Bowers and Merena's Frontenac Sale in late 1991 as part of a notable collection of half dollars, where it appeared in an XF45 PCGS in an early holder..."

It's a really nice coin, but...c'mon! Grade inflation, poor lighting, porous surfaces, weak struck eagle breast, etc... >>

Its cool that you found that! lol The coin his "healing" itslelf!

asheland · September 23, 2015 12:46AM

maibockaddict · September 23, 2015 12:46AM

<< 

<< How in the world does it go from XF45 (1991) to AU55 (2014) to MS62 (Present Day)???

"1795 50C 2 Leaves, O-125, T-13, R.4, MS62 PCGS. This attractive and wonderfully toned Flowing Hair half dollar was purchased "raw" by a private collector in the mid-to-late 1980s. It was subsequently consigned to Bowers and Merena's Frontenac Sale in late 1991 as part of a notable collection of half dollars, where it appeared in an XF45 PCGS in an early holder..."

It's a really nice coin, but...c'mon! Grade inflation, poor lighting, porous surfaces, weak struck eagle breast, etc... >>

Its cool that you noticed that! lol The coin his "healing" itself! >>

tradedollarnut · September 23, 2015 12:50AM

Rampant gradeflation is ruining the hobby ....for me at least

TwoSides2aCoin · September 23, 2015 12:58AM

QE

Qualitative Eeking

LindeDad · September 23, 2015 1:09AM

<< Rampant gradeflation is ruining the hobby ....for me at least >>

Your not alone and it's not just at the top.

MonsterCoinz · September 23, 2015 1:09AM

But why no TrueView?!

I wish my coins healed themselves. More often than not, they drop a grade from one slab to the next.

TURBO · September 23, 2015 1:17AM

keyman64 · September 23, 2015 1:22AM

BryceM · September 23, 2015 1:39AM

Well, kudos to Heritage for accurately documenting all of this.

I'm sure many consignors would be happy to keep the history of the coin quiet.

Zoins · September 23, 2015 1:49AM

For another coin recently on the forums, the 1798 reverse of 1795 "small eagle" $5 was graded EF45 / AU50 back in 2000 and is now an AU55.

MidLifeCrisis · September 23, 2015 2:00AM

Maybe it's a 45...maybe it's a 55...maybe it's a 62...maybe it's some other grade.

Decide for yourself and bid/pay/walk away accordingly.

Grades are opinions. The only ones that really matter are those of the buyer and the seller.

Shortgapbob · September 23, 2015 2:06AM

I'm not disagreeing with anything posting about the increasing grade, but in all fairness, the coin was described as Mint State when sold back in 1998 in a Stacks sale.

TPRC · September 23, 2015 2:09AM

45 to 62......didn't an 1804 dollar to that, or close to that, as well? This one looks more justified than the 1804, if memory serves me correctly.

steveben · September 23, 2015 2:52AM

buy the coin, not the ...

rhedden · September 23, 2015 2:53AM

Gradeflation is real, but this coin's story is ridiculous on both ends. I would have graded this coin AU55 back in the 1990s and disputed the XF45 grade on it. Details are way too strong for XF. I still grade it 55. I might have expected to see it in an AU58 holder based on today's standards, as it has obvious rub. The XF45 grade was just silly in the first place, but so is the MS62. How does it go from being not good enough for AU to being completely MS?

That a nice AU55 Flowing Hair half, judging by the Heritage pictures, by the way. Wish my 1795 half looked this good.

EastonCollection · September 23, 2015 4:00AM

WOW - I really think this is a hot potato! I don't grade this coin higher than AU and I guess this demonstrates to me the absolute need to higher a first notch dealer to view coins at auction. Anyone spending that type of money for coins in that price range should seek professional advice.

MrEureka · September 23, 2015 4:03AM

I trust that anyone considering a career in numismatics will find this thread inspirational.

mrearlygold · September 23, 2015 4:24AM

<< I trust that anyone considering a career in numismatics will find this thread inspirational. >>

Well, depends on what they plan to do with that career

slumlord98 · September 23, 2015 4:36AM

Kudos to Heritage for not shying away from the grading issue. Lots of times a new holder means no pedigree or background info. Collectors can judge for themselves what the coin is worth.

PerryHall · September 23, 2015 4:36AM

I wonder if the leadership of PCGS is aware of this thread. If they are, they can't be too happy with this embarrassing revelation.

wondercoin · September 23, 2015 4:46AM

Two points...

1. Simply a fabulous description by Heritage of the history of the coin. Great job!

2. For the second time This past week, I 100% agree with TDN.

Wondercoin

Treashunt · September 23, 2015 4:48AM

How?

easy:

It is uncirculating itself.

TopographicOceans · September 23, 2015 4:50AM

The coin simply got better with age

pmac · September 23, 2015 5:13AM

<< How in the world does it go from XF45 (1991) to AU55 (2014) to MS62 (Present Day)???

"1795 50C 2 Leaves, O-125, T-13, R.4, MS62 PCGS. This attractive and wonderfully toned Flowing Hair half dollar was purchased "raw" by a private collector in the mid-to-late 1980s. It was subsequently consigned to Bowers and Merena's Frontenac Sale in late 1991 as part of a notable collection of half dollars, where it appeared in an XF45 PCGS in an early holder..."

It's a really nice coin, but...c'mon! Grade inflation, poor lighting, porous surfaces, weak struck eagle breast, etc... >>

Just like me, it gets better with age!

sorry, I didn't read the whole thread.

johnny9434 · September 23, 2015 5:22AM

<< Rampant gradeflation is ruining the hobby ....for me at least >>

me as well

DeliaBug · September 23, 2015 7:09AM

I checked my copy of Frontenac and it (Lot 3015) is described as the finest known O-125, and as undergraded, twice. (For the record it brought $7920)

astrorat · September 23, 2015 7:44AM

<< I trust that anyone considering a career in numismatics will find this thread inspirational. >>

Not quite sure what it will inspire!

Unknown · September 23, 2015 7:59AM

This content has been removed.

Nic · September 23, 2015 8:58AM

<< Rampant gradeflation is ruining the hobby ....for me at least >>

100 point scale is coming.

roadrunner · September 23, 2015 9:03AM

Did someone miss the coin the first time around at Gardner? Coin wasn't even stickered in the AU55 grade.

Reminds me of my NGC AU58 1803 half dime that was lightly cleaned, 15% luster, and some field gouges. It was a technical unc because of no wear, but with a lot abuse that couldn't be overlooked. It showed up a few months after I sold it in a Heritage auction....NGC MS62. I did sell it for market MS60 money. But the MS62 grade just wowed me.

I thought gradeflation was rampant back in the 1998-2003 era and came to a peak in 2008. I thought it was only getting better since 2009. Shows what I know or assumed. I've lost interest since about 2009 mainly due to the grading and valuation of coins now works.

DollarAfterDollar · September 23, 2015 10:26AM

Obvious rub on the breast and the pictures make it look like 2 different coins.

If that's MS 62, I quit!!!

Zoins · September 23, 2015 10:26AM

<< Besides the age old grading is subjective and that grade inflation can and will ruin the hobby. I don't really know where this piece falls in since I have not had the opportunity to see it in hand.
But from a personal experience point of view I have two capped bust dimes that are currently in pcgs au55 holders and are clearly ms coins and rightly gold stickered.
In addition many here succumb to the idea that there are too many au58's that are really ms63's and vica versa.
And lastly a couple of years ago I bought a raw h10c for ms62 money and sent it in to a big tpg where it came back as follows over 3 months:
xf45, au53, au58,ms62 after numerous attempts. Sure the coin is smaller is size than the subject piece but the story is the same.
SO why am I not surprised. >>

Good job and story. Congrats on getting the grade you valued it at.

Zoins · September 23, 2015 10:28AM

<< Obvious rub on the breast and the pictures make it look like 2 different coins.

If that's MS 62, I quit!!! >>

One thing to consider is that market grading is the standard in the hobby and recognized by the ANA so this may be an "AU62".

lkeigwin · September 23, 2015 12:24PM

I had this coin in my possession for a few days. A joy to behold. Lovely.

I thought 55 was a good technical grade. There is no denying rub. The MS62 market grade doesn't surprise me, though.
Lance.

jayPem · September 23, 2015 12:46PM

If you guys haven't opened Sheridans link to check out Lances pics. You should do so.
The coins a beauty and may well support a 62 grade in hand.

ricko · September 23, 2015 9:42PM

The controversy over grades is (IMO) mainly for pricing.... to collectors (those of us who acquire and do not sell), the coin is important and the grade
is a minor point. If the coin is attractive (and this is a term that varies between collectors - i.e. tarnish, luster etc), that is important...not an opinion, expressed in numbers, by a faceless entity (TPG). That becomes critical only for commerce purposes. Cheers, RickO

Justacommeman · September 23, 2015 9:51PM

Sexy coin

mark

Hydrant · October 4, 2015 7:42AM

Why go to Vegas? This is way better....and without the drive.

Coinsponge · October 4, 2015 8:35AM

This just reinforces to me the level of subjectivity that coin grading has even though some seem to insist it is always objective. I think there are some skilled at knowing if a coin has a good chance of upgrading with certain graders and if they happen to catch the "right" graders then it is payday. It is this situation that can lead one to think (rightly or wrongly) that there is something fishy going on especially when the difference is going from circulated to uncirculated.

UtahCoin · October 4, 2015 8:52AM

Plastic. Costs so little, and adds so much.

ricko · October 5, 2015 12:13AM

<< Plastic. Costs so little, and adds so much.
>>

This is so very true..... adds cost, increases price, allows individuals who cannot grade to act as if they can, allows buyers to believe they are getting something that they may NOT be getting.....etc., etc., etc.. Cheers, RickO

joeykoins · October 5, 2015 2:43AM

<<

>>

" You're out of order!!!" Great movie.

Baley · October 5, 2015 2:53AM

How does it go from being not good enough for AU to being completely MS?

<< I had this coin in my possession for a few days. A joy to behold. Lovely.

I thought 55 was a good technical grade. There is no denying rub. The MS62 market grade doesn't surprise me, though.
Lance. >>

This. The problem, once again, is the ridiculous, artificial line between "Mint State" and "Circulated" grades, particularly for really old coins

the successive grading events are evaluations and appraisals of the item. Opinions of the value.

Not "Facts" about whether the coin was spent or not, or whether it has a touch of "rub" on the highpoints.

And yes, if this were a Morgan, it would be "graded" by a different standard.

Rightly so, IMO

An Expensive Hot Potato

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