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An Announcement from the New Publishers of the Gray Sheet
BillJones
Posts: 35,982 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just received this mesasge in an email about the change in ownership of the Gray Sheet:
"Virginia Beach, VA. CDN Publishing, LLC is proud to announce that we have been chosen by the Downing family to carry on the fine tradition of numismatic pricing. CDN has been publishing printed versions of its various numismatic newsletters continuously since 1963, and the passing of Shane Downing left a void in the management, and the owners decided to seek a new publisher.
John Feigenbaum, formerly president of David Lawrence Rare Coins, is the managing partner of the new ownership group, which includes Jim Halperin, Steve Ivy, Mark Salzberg and Steve Eichenbaum. According to Feigenbaum, “while my partners and I have various numismatic interests, I have opted to retire from my full-time career as a rare coin dealer to focus on the information side of the hobby, and I will dedicate myself to the publication and growth of CDN, and its family of publications.” My partners and I have entered into this new arrangement with the full understanding that CDN will run without any pricing or reporting influence from the partners, or related entities; and that they are passive investors in this endeavor.
CDN will continue to operate with the same independent authority as always, with a renewed focus on contemporary market-pricing concerns, including a greater focus on areas such as auction price results, the impact of CAC, and “plus" grading. Feigenbaum continues to add that, “the world of coin pricing is incredibly complex and CDN has a very important role to fill in protecting buyers and sellers by getting the pricing right.”
Feigenbaum has over 30 years of professional coin experience which he will use to lead his team of analysts, led by Editor Patrick Ian Perez, as they bring CDN into “the next 53 years.” As far as current and future plans, Feigenbaum stated that, “our first plan to to complete the physical move of the CDN to East Coast and solidify our operations here. We are note planning any major changes, except to work hard on updating pricing on specialty series, which have been long neglected. In our second phase, we will speak to our readers to determine the top areas of focus for improvements and change. CDN feels like a start-up company all of a sudden, and it’s a very exciting time for me and my staff.”
John Feigenbaum can be reached at john@greysheet.com. Patrick Perez can be reached at patrick@greysheet.com."
This could be a very good development in the history of this publication. We all know that the Gray Sheet has gotten out of touch with many aspects of the market in recent years. This could very well be a turn for the better.
"Virginia Beach, VA. CDN Publishing, LLC is proud to announce that we have been chosen by the Downing family to carry on the fine tradition of numismatic pricing. CDN has been publishing printed versions of its various numismatic newsletters continuously since 1963, and the passing of Shane Downing left a void in the management, and the owners decided to seek a new publisher.
John Feigenbaum, formerly president of David Lawrence Rare Coins, is the managing partner of the new ownership group, which includes Jim Halperin, Steve Ivy, Mark Salzberg and Steve Eichenbaum. According to Feigenbaum, “while my partners and I have various numismatic interests, I have opted to retire from my full-time career as a rare coin dealer to focus on the information side of the hobby, and I will dedicate myself to the publication and growth of CDN, and its family of publications.” My partners and I have entered into this new arrangement with the full understanding that CDN will run without any pricing or reporting influence from the partners, or related entities; and that they are passive investors in this endeavor.
CDN will continue to operate with the same independent authority as always, with a renewed focus on contemporary market-pricing concerns, including a greater focus on areas such as auction price results, the impact of CAC, and “plus" grading. Feigenbaum continues to add that, “the world of coin pricing is incredibly complex and CDN has a very important role to fill in protecting buyers and sellers by getting the pricing right.”
Feigenbaum has over 30 years of professional coin experience which he will use to lead his team of analysts, led by Editor Patrick Ian Perez, as they bring CDN into “the next 53 years.” As far as current and future plans, Feigenbaum stated that, “our first plan to to complete the physical move of the CDN to East Coast and solidify our operations here. We are note planning any major changes, except to work hard on updating pricing on specialty series, which have been long neglected. In our second phase, we will speak to our readers to determine the top areas of focus for improvements and change. CDN feels like a start-up company all of a sudden, and it’s a very exciting time for me and my staff.”
John Feigenbaum can be reached at john@greysheet.com. Patrick Perez can be reached at patrick@greysheet.com."
This could be a very good development in the history of this publication. We all know that the Gray Sheet has gotten out of touch with many aspects of the market in recent years. This could very well be a turn for the better.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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And it certainly has some heavyweights of the coin universe backing it!
Good first step here.
In the United States, "gray" is the more widely accepted and proper spelling whereas in the UK and other countries "grey" is the more widely accepted spelling.
An easy way to remember this is A is for America and E is for Europe. That is how I learned it and it might be helpful to others.
As the global community grows closer to each other, these lines are blurred and people are not taught these things so they end up using them interchangeably.
When Bill Jones was typing his thoughts, he typed GRAY which is correct but when he copied and pasted the text from the email, you will notice the company
spells their name wrong, unless it was founded outside of the United States. So, unfortunately, when referring to the company name, their website and their
email addresses....we must comply and do it WRONG.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>... My partners and I have entered into this new arrangement with the full understanding that CDN will run without any pricing or reporting influence from the partners, or related entities; and that they are passive investors in this endeavor.... >>
That is quite a challenge.
Roadrunner..... If the "challenge" can not be met, what does that mean?
Is this whole issue "much ado about nothing". For example, if Heritage places a bid on CCE for anything and John follows it, how much different is that from Heritage simply having direct access to the chief editor in the first place and telling him to change a price from x to y? I suppose John not following it is the impartial option?
In the end, isn't this possibly just another price for collectors and dealers to utilize/ consider in addition to Coinfacts on a great deal of the coins?
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
<< <i>
<< <i>... My partners and I have entered into this new arrangement with the full understanding that CDN will run without any pricing or reporting influence from the partners, or related entities; and that they are passive investors in this endeavor.... >>
That is quite a challenge. >>
All four own NGC
A shift in focus away from sight-seen and sight-unseen bids and asks, and towards auction results, would be very welcome. Hopefully, the fiction of a bid/ask market for rare coins will finally be put to rest.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The court jester does not play, but gently pulls the strings…
Mr. Eureka: <<Hopefully, the fiction of a bid/ask market for rare coins will finally be put to rest.>>
Rarities do not really trade over electronic networks, at least not often. Has anyone ever hit a bid for an 1838-O half or an 1815 half eagle?
<< <i>Mr. Eureka: <<Hopefully, the fiction of a bid/ask market for rare coins will finally be put to rest.>>
Rarities do not really trade over electronic networks, at least not often. Has anyone ever hit a bid for an 1838-O half or an 1815 half eagle? >>
I once didn't buy an 1804$10 at bid. My mistake!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>... My partners and I have entered into this new arrangement with the full understanding that CDN will run without any pricing or reporting influence from the partners, or related entities; and that they are passive investors in this endeavor.... >>
That is quite a challenge. >>
All four own NGC >>
Wow that says a lot >>
I can tell you as a silent partner in many companies that my wants and desires are always a factor. If four partners in the grey sheet are NGC owners then the sheet will gravitate towards legitimizing NGC. That's just reality.
Pretty useless table anyways w/o knowing the real numbers behind it (the table says to look at the July 1988 Monthly supplement... don't have one of those handy, haha!). And not quite sure of it's accuracy anyways. I mean is that table really trying to say that PCGS and NGC coins trade at about 80% of Greysheet bid on average? ANACS coins at 66% of bid??? ICG at 50% of bid???
I think the relative price differences might be somewhat helpful, but not too many PCGS/NGC coins that I know of that can be bought at 80% of bid w/ regularity.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
I am also frankly puzzled why John F. needed to resign his post at DLRC while presumably maintaining ownership of his company anyway? What does that accomplish, especially with his other 4 new partners conducting their business as usual. And DLRC conducting business as usual anyway as well. I would have had zero objection personally with Jim H. running the sheet while doing nothing different at Heritage. If he as good at grading coins as he is at valuing coins, he would have probably been an incredible replacement. Conflicts or not. Life is full of them. The key is always full and complete disclosure. Here the full disclosure appears to be 1/5 partners resigning their present post to run the sheet. Why exactly?
Anyway, I wish all five new owners of the sheet the very best.
As always, just my two cents. Wondercoin.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'm still looking for the sellers who have posted an Ask price for the full Red 1793-1796 Liberty Cap type Large Cents. The Red coins and sellers must surely exist or there would not have been Ask prices listed for the last couple of decades.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Mr. Eureka: <<Analyst - How often do you think anyone actually hits an ask for a Boone in 65? How about in 58? >>
I believe that trading volume in vintage commems has severely fallen over the years. So, I am not sure that this is a fair question.
In the past, bids for generic gold, Morgans, and many Walkers were 'hit' fairly often and I am sure that such bids continue to be referenced as market prices by multiple players. Even if a bid is not 'hit' electronically, the high bidder may receive a phone call from a serious seller who is willing to accept the posted bid price or a small premium above it. Posted bids often serve as bases for many trades of common coins.
Perhaps Mr. Eureka or other participants in this thread would be willing to share insights regarding the roles CCE, CoinPlex and greysheet bid prices play in actual transactions. In what ways has the greysheet been important in 2015, before the publisher died?
I doubt that electronic bids for 1795-'9 Leaves' eagles significantly affect the prices realized for these in auctions or private transactions.
The Marvelous Pogue Family Collection, Part 7: The Mystique of the 1795 Nine Leaves $10 Gold Coin
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
The NGC and PCGS price guides can have vast differences sometimes.
Say a MS66 coin has a PCGS price guide of $10k and an NGC price guide of $7k.
Perhaps the populations are highly different, but it creates the impression that a PCGS MS66 is "better" and that is why it is more valuable.
If the sheet has a bias towards NGC it could influence the market to lower the price of the PCGS MS66 coin.
Of course the opposite could happen as well, where sheet prices could rise if the NGC price guide is higher than the PCGS price guide, it could raise the value of PCGS coins.
If the grey sheet pricing is done using a standard formula based on data of reported sales, then no TPG would influence the price.
What would be intereting is if someone took a sample of coins using today's grey sheet and the NGC and PCGS price guides and then checked again in 6 months and see what happened.
Congratulations on the acquisition
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody and be perfect !
Topographic Oceans: <<If the grey sheet pricing is done using a standard formula based on data of reported sales, then no TPG would influence the price.>>
The available data will always be woefully incomplete. Many coins do not trade very often and many trades will never be reported. An editor of a price guide must also distinguish retail prices from wholesale prices. Such a job is not easy. Editors must use their minds to figure market levels.
Perhaps not if the transcriber is TwoSides2aCoin and its a paper dollar (see trying to sell to get your ebay bucks), a few may question its value of a dollar.
One must makes choices at times, may we all always have better choices.
Gray sheet: Change can be good.
Really...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Got a email from CDN advertising who else but David Lawrence Rare Coins.
I hope the next change I notice is more then cross promotions from the new managing partner from his ex company.
Wondercoin
WonderCoin: <<But didn't the "Chinese Wall" make it all OK? >>
I have known John Feigenbaum for more than twenty years and I suggest that he be given the benefit of the doubt. For a long time, he has been one of the more honest people in the coin business. While I do not agree with all of his viewpoints, I have a good deal of respect for John.
While it might be true that the four largest shareholders of NGC are also large shareholders of the Greysheet, I have been told that John is in charge of the Greysheet. Feigenbaum has discretionary authority. Until someone provides some evidence that the Greysheet is now more favorable to NGC certified coins than the Greysheet was in the past, it is not fair to suggest that there will be any such favoritism in the future.
Feigenbaum is certainly a much better choice for this position than some other prominent people in the coin business. There should be a thread about the positive aspects of Feigenbaum, including his accomplishments and his skills.
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
insightful10@gmail.com
I made a comment (11 days ago) in jest about another board member's comment about receiving CDN advertising (and "cross promotions") of DLRC. So, I won't be the one providing the evidence you are looking for concerning NGC. Now, if you ask me for evidence that the Greysheet is now more favorable to DLRC than it had been - well, I have one piece of second hand evidence i read on a chat room board
Wondercoin
WonderCoin: << Now, if you ask me for evidence that the Greysheet is now more favorable to .... >
I apologize for singling out WonderCoin. It is my honest impression, however that many posts on this forum, including points made by WonderCoin in this thread, subtly suggest a concern that the new Greysheet will have some kind of unfortunate bias and question JF's objectivity.
JF: << ... My partners and I have entered into this new arrangement with the full understanding that CDN will run without any pricing or reporting influence from the partners, or related entities; and that they are passive investors in this endeavor.... >>
Roadrunner: <<That is quite a challenge. >>
TDN: <<All four {investors in the Greysheet}own NGC>>
ManOfCoins: <<Wow that says a lot >>
TDN: << I can tell you as a silent partner in many companies that my wants and desires are always a factor. If four partners in the Greysheet are NGC owners then the sheet will gravitate towards ... NGC. That's just reality. >>
WonderCoin:<< I can understand what TDN is saying>>
Illini:<<If NGC owners are now owners of the Greysheet, I bet that table of the grading companies on page one disappears pretty quickly... the one where there is the ranking the values of coins graded by the various slab companies that almost always shows PCGS at the top. >>
If it is true that the four largest shareholders of NGC are now the four largest shareholders of NGC, and I emphasize the term 'IF,' then I am concerned, too. It was unfair to JF, though, to cast doubt on him before he even left the starting gate.
I am the only one here who is stating that JF is exceptionally well qualified for this task and is one of the more honest people in the coin business. While the remarks relating to JF and the new Greysheet in this thread have been negative or neutral, I wish to communicate my positive impression of JF. As I already said, I have known him for more than twenty years. He is highly respected.
insightful10@gmail.com
WonderCoin:<< I can understand what TDN is saying>>
Illini:<<If NGC owners are now owners of the Greysheet, I bet that table of the grading companies on page one disappears pretty quickly... the one where there is the ranking the values of coins graded by the various slab companies that almost always shows PCGS at the top. >>
Analyst: << If it is true that the four largest shareholders of NGC are now the four largest shareholders of NGC, and I emphasize the term 'IF,' then I am concerned, too.
****************
On a separate note (as far as I know), I, for one, never commented on whether the former editor of the Greysheet was competent to publish the sheet for the past 20 or 30 years that he did it (or even discussed his performance in my view over any of that time period), so I believe there is nothing to read into with respect to my failure to expressly state whether I believe JF is equally competent or not. Let's see how the sheet looks in a year!
Wondercoin
(edited to add ... thank you for that apology)
<< <i>
Illini:<<If NGC owners are now owners of the Greysheet, I bet that table of the grading companies on page one disappears pretty quickly... the one where there is the ranking the values of coins graded by the various slab companies that almost always shows PCGS at the top. >>
>>
I have nothing bad to say about the individuals who now control the Greysheet, but I did see that I was right as that table of the grading companies is no longer being printed in the Greysheet.
It was pretty meaningless anyways as I believe the table was trying to say PCGS graded and NGC graded coins traded at about 80% of the Greysheet bid prices on average... sure, whatever! I'd love to buy all of my PCGS/NGC graded coins at 80% bid on average
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
WonderCoin: <<On a separate note (as far as I know), I, for one, never commented on whether the former editor of the Greysheet was competent to publish the sheet ... >>
I hope that this remark was not directed at my posts. The skills of past editors are not very relevant to my posts.
I was concerned that contributors to this thread were casting doubt on JF's objectivity and methods before he even began to publish the Greysheet. In this thread, no one said anything positive about JF until I did so. Again, I have known JF for more than twenty years and I believe him to be one of the more honest people in the coin business.
Additionally, JF has more experience the field of publishing than most coin dealers. DLRC has published numerous books and JF has been involved in web site development in various ways.
Illini: <<I have nothing bad to say about the individuals who now control the Greysheet, ... >>
Here, Illini is not saying anything 'good'!
Illini: <<... but I did see that I was right as that table of the grading companies is no longer being printed in the Greysheet.... It was pretty meaningless anyways as I believe the table was trying to say PCGS graded and NGC graded coins traded at about 80% of the Greysheet bid prices on average... sure, whatever! I'd love to buy all of my PCGS/NGC graded coins at 80% bid on average>>
The table was misleading and, to some extent, an anachronism, as Mr. Eureka implied above. There was a time, long ago, when there was much more sight unseen (no return privilege) trading than there is now. It was then important that the sight unseen (no return) prices were less than Greysheet values. As Illini implies, the removal of the table is not itself evidence of a bias towards NGC.
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
"Selling!!!!!!!
SPECIAL ( not really unless greysheet doesn't fix it)
50 - 2008 Clad Proof Quarter sets
GSB=$34 Will sell the lot at 50% of grey $17 per"
Before I consider buying a fresh subscription, can John F. or anyone else from the sheet address this situation please. I have sent a PM to John F. so he is aware of this.
Wondercoin.
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody and be perfect !
I agree that the table of grading service values was meaningless, and I think deleting it was a good idea.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Recently a long-time collector/dealer who was a faithful subscriber to the gray sheet for several decades told me he cancelled his subscription immediately when he heard about the new management. I asked him why he took this action before giving them a chance. He explained his fear of price manipulation by NGC & Heritage. I think he will change his mind when he sees the changes actually reflect current prices much more accurately then before. Perhaps I am naive but I honestly believe this can help our hobby/business by narrowing the gap between gray sheet prices and actual prices so that dealers and collectors are more confident using the sheets as a price reference.
Keep up the good work.
Guys... I brought this thread to the top to have a SERIOUS discussion about proof and mint set prices. Can anyone address this particular issue? I deal with these all the time and need to understand if I need to start offering customers as little as 40 or 45 cents on the dollar on certain listed items. Thanks. Wondercoin.
I was looking at a 1937 raw Proof set at the last Baltimore show. The coins was okay, but not outstanding. I looked at the bid price for the set, and then I added up the bids for the individual coins and was shocked. The Proof set is bid a $3,250 for "average quality sets (Proof 63-65)." The total of the bids for the five coins in the set in Proof-65 is $3,110. That makes no sense.
Original, never broken up Proof sets with attractive toning are worth a premium, sometimes a really strong premium for Barber coins and earlier. But run of the mill, put together sets are not worth a premium.
Guys... I brought this thread to the top to have a SERIOUS discussion about proof and mint set prices. Can anyone address this particular issue? I deal with these all the time and need to understand if I need to start offering customers as little as 40 or 45 cents on the dollar on certain listed items. Thanks. Wondercoin.
I think that John hasn't addressed the proof and mint sets yet. If you want to help him, send him an email and offer your inputs on pricing of these items.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.