I have to accept defeat. An ebay return policy story.

joebb21 · September 2, 2015 5:09AM

Some years ago I realized people were buying coins from me on ebay and then offering the items out for x days if they could not sell it and then file a return claim on ebay.

After somebody ended up offering MY coin BACK TO ME I decided that no longer will I be offering a return policy on ebay.

For years I have had listed items with NO RETURNS" and they either sold or didnt and never had a problem.

Now for the first time buyer "stamp-doctor" bought an 1882 $1 ngc ms65 from me for $395 and sent me this message

"Received this coin and it has issues not shown in the photo's. We are returning it you at your po Box address. If you do not accept the return we'll be disputing the charge with AMEX as that's how we paid. It will be shipped today. Thank you."

i have always been very vocal against the buyers ability to stiff arm sellers and have made many comments on other threads to fight the buyer.
To me its not about the money but the principle of allowing people to extort a refund or money back on items that are clearly no returns.

I called ebay to ask about whether I have to allow the return and was told that as long as the buyer claims an item is not exactly as they imagined it will be then they can return it. Since ebay has no way of disproving a claim about the item then he will win.

I specifically had also stopped describing coins on ebay (other than date, grading service, and grade) so that there is no dispute as to what the item is.
In the end, every step I took to avoid such buyers has been futile and he will now be on my block list.

To clarify- I dont care about the $395. What I do care about is that the buyer came out swinging with extorting the refund. That is what set me off.
SELLERS BEWARE

Anybody know the process if a claim is made through amex? What about if I first refuse to accept the package when it comes in?

GoldCoin98 · September 2, 2015 5:19AM

Wheres the story?

BAJJERFAN · September 2, 2015 5:25AM

That says it ALL to me.

LindeDad · September 2, 2015 5:29AM

Never opted in.
Would of liked a little more tact, but many don't always use it on the internet.
BTW My policy is will accept all returns for two weeks except bullion no questions asked.
Thought you were going to post about the eBay auto return were the seller even pays shipping.

BAJJERFAN · September 2, 2015 5:30AM

Who knew?

TigersFan2 · September 2, 2015 5:53AM

Ebay sides with the buyer 99.9% of the time. All the buyer needs to say is "item not as described" and the seller must accept a return and pay for the return shipping.

I've never had an issue with a buyer. I have a coworker who always has trouble with buyers. I allow returns on my auctions. He doesn't allow returns. I've hypothesized that stating you don't allow returns increases the "not as described" returns because that becomes the only avenue a buyer has to return.

commoncents05 · September 2, 2015 5:56AM

Not describing an item on eBay doesn't constitute immunity from someone opening a SNAD dispute, and I think rightfully so. The images acted as a "description" for the buyer, and they specifically mentioned the coin didn't look the same as in the photos. There are huge variations in images and people knowing or not knowing how to interpret those images. eBay is not a sight unseen venue.

Edit: For what it's worth, I think they could have been a little more cordial instead of immediately threatening a charge back on their CC.

-Paul

oih82w8 · September 2, 2015 6:02AM

That type of aggression goes against my grain as a seller from a buyer; "I am sending it back...if you refuse...then I am going to..."

eBay needs to revamp their return policy, No returns means no returns. Buyer beware!

I sold a SMS MS68 coin a year or so ago and the buyer wanted to return it because it had an "imperfection" that was hidden in a shadow on the image. I had a return policy, no problem, I replied back that it is why the coin is a 68 and not a 70, there is a limiting condition to prevents it from being "perfect".

Buyers are expecting the moon for peanuts.

ebaybuyer · September 2, 2015 6:02AM

stamp-doctor is that how his ebay ID reads ? been a while since i blocked someone... looks like its time.

BAJJERFAN · September 2, 2015 6:07AM

<< That type of aggression goes against my grain as a seller from a buyer; "I am sending it back...if you refuse...then I am going to..."

eBay needs to revamp their return policy, No returns means no returns. Buyer beware!

I sold a SMS MS68 coin a year or so ago and the buyer wanted to return it because it had an "imperfection" that was hidden in a shadow on the image. I had a return policy, no problem, I replied back that it is why the coin is a 68 and not a 70, there is a limiting condition to prevents it from being "perfect".

Buyers are expecting the moon for peanuts. >>

Buyer extortion plain and simple.

MonsterCoinz · September 2, 2015 6:09AM

So No Returns Accepted means Returns Accepted. Got it.

roadrunner · September 2, 2015 6:15AM

<< Ebay sides with the buyer 99.9% of the time. All the buyer needs to say is "item not as described" and the seller must accept a return and pay for the return shipping.

I've never had an issue with a buyer. I have a coworker who always has trouble with buyers. I allow returns on my auctions. He doesn't allow returns. I've hypothesized that stating you don't allow returns increases the "not as described" returns because that becomes the only avenue a buyer has to return. >>

Wow. What a change from 2002-2010 when I was playing frequently on Ebay. I got a number of coins that were nowhere near as described, complained to the sellers, and was told to F off in no uncertain terms. Since they had a no return policy there was nothing I could do but NEG them....which I did. Had I returned those coins to those sellers they would have probably kept my money and kept the coins....lol. Been there, done that. Don't send anything back unless you're sure you won't lose 2X as much....lol.

OPA · September 2, 2015 6:16AM

You did not give us your auction listing, as such, I don't know what the buyer is complaining about. I agree, the buyer could have been more tactful in his communication with you, however, returning it is less costly to you, than having a SNAD claim filed against you. Promptly refund his payment when you receive the item & relist it. FYI there is no such thing as NO RETURNS in the coin category. Only the bullion category has that exemption.

coinlieutenant · September 2, 2015 6:21AM

Yosef,

We have done business in the past, but I must say that if I didn't know you and couldn't get a return, I wouldn't buy anything from you.

Why not make the return priv very short (They must notify within 24 hours of receipt and ship within 72 hours)? Will get more business and eliminate people trying to sell your coins on unapproved memo?

John

sawyerjosh · September 2, 2015 6:42AM

Suck it up and move on.

BAJJERFAN · September 2, 2015 6:43AM

<< So No Returns Accepted means Returns Accepted. Got it. >>

Pretty much.

joebb21 · September 2, 2015 6:45AM

<< Not describing an item on eBay doesn't constitute immunity from someone opening a SNAD dispute, and I think rightfully so. The images acted as a "description" for the buyer, and they specifically mentioned the coin didn't look the same as in the photos. There are huge variations in images and people knowing or not knowing how to interpret those images. eBay is not a sight unseen venue.

Edit: For what it's worth, I think they could have been a little more cordial instead of immediately threatening a charge back on their CC.

-Paul >>

Again to clarify, my bigger issue was the extortion attempt right off the bat.

If he sent me a message in the beginning stating his feeling I probably would not have been as upset.

TwoSides2aCoin · September 2, 2015 7:00AM

You're the victor taking it back and being finished dealing with such. That's the only consolation.
Thankfully it's not like food, which spoils; like ebay.

Broadstruck · September 2, 2015 7:13AM

A 3 day return period for ebay is enough as you either like a coin once you get it or not...

14 days is way too long as you get excuses like I lost my job or my car died.

LindeDad · September 2, 2015 7:39AM

Think most are stuck with two week in order play the eBay game now.

joebb21 · September 2, 2015 7:52AM

<< Yosef,

We have done business in the past, but I must say that if I didn't know you and couldn't get a return, I wouldn't buy anything from you. >>

John,

I understand your feeling and I am sure many people in the past have looked at my return policy and said "no return-pass".

That has always been fine for me.

I do 99% of my business wholesale and my business model has always been to move coins quickly and do quick turnovers.
on a $400, $11 for shipping is almost 3% of the profit. On such items many times I may make an extra 1-3%.

Having to take back the coin and relist for the same price means I no longer make anything on it.

i would rather state no returns and people can either buy or not and once its bought I know its sold and gone.

Further, I dont want to sell a bigger coin a week before a major show and then be told it is being returned and then I wont have the coin available to take to my show.

i have a wholesale price list that goes out before many of the major shows and when a client asks to buy a coin sight seen many times I will tell them that I can provide pictures or they will have to see if its still available after the show.

OPA · September 2, 2015 7:52AM

<< Think most are stuck with two week in order play the eBay game now.

>>

"And knock on wood," I've only had one return in the last 2 years. Detailed and precise description of the item you are selling along any with clear and in focus pictures, will solve most of your potential return issues.
Yes, I have a 14 day return policy on all coins, but not on bullion bars or rounds and that includes bullion (nmm) ASE's & AGE's.

<< on a $400, $11 for shipping >>

Wow... for 1 coin?
bubble mailer up to 3 oz with Delivery Confirmation: $2.03 (tack on $2.20 for sig conf.) total $4+

BAJJERFAN · September 2, 2015 7:55AM

<< 

<< Yosef,

We have done business in the past, but I must say that if I didn't know you and couldn't get a return, I wouldn't buy anything from you. >>

John,

I understand your feeling and I am sure many people in the past have looked at my return policy and said "no return-pass".

That has always been fine for me.

I do 99% of my business wholesale and my business model has always been to move coins quickly and do quick turnovers.
on a $400, $11 for shipping is almost 3% of the profit. On such items many times I may make an extra 1-3%.

Having to take back the coin and relist for the same price means I no longer make anything on it.

i would rather state no returns and people can either buy or not and once its bought I know its sold and gone.

Further, I dont want to sell a bigger coin a week before a major show and then be told it is being returned and then I wont have the coin available to take to my show.

i have a wholesale price list that goes out before many of the major shows and when a client asks to buy a coin sight seen many times I will not offer sight unseen if I would not have enough time to get it back before the show. >>

You can recover most if not all fees. Also you would not be obligated to refund shipping [unless it was free].

AMRC · September 2, 2015 8:13AM

So you stopped offering returns because someone thought your stuff was so under-priced they could buy it from you, mark-it-up enough to cover eBay and PayPal fees plus a profit, and then if they could not sell it for that, they would go through the work and risk of returning coin. So your response was to refuse returns to the other 99.9% of the folks that buy from you. And then you feel defeated by eBay?

Here's the thing. IMHO, everyone and anyone who is not happy with anything should be able to return it. Yes, there are scams, one such was reported here some time ago and ended up with eBay actually revoking the buyer's account. If this person was dumb enough to do what you claim, they would not last long anyway, and besides that, if enough people reported it eBay, they would put a stop to it. Capitalism, if nothing else, is great at milling out "stupid." Add to that that eBay ONLY gets paid on successful deals, and they allow returns anyway, means they are trying to create a buyers environment. That's the game. You tried to outplay it and are now discouraged that you could not.

Edited: Those stupid commas keep moving!

AUandAG · September 2, 2015 8:18AM

Welcome to retail.

bob

DollarAfterDollar · September 2, 2015 8:27AM

I think your stated "no returns allowed" was effectively the shot across the bow prompting the buyer to come out aggressively. As was stated, you HAVE to take back the coin and refund the buyer. E-Bay refuses to recognize their own option to you to refuse returns. Sellers who make that selection are doing so hoping the Buyers don't know their rights.

Nothing precludes you from blocking the person and you must take some care to prevent negative feedback for a transaction that didn't take place.

As I've said before, now that you have an address there's nothing to prevent you from having six yards of pea gravel delivered to his house to make you feel all warm and fuzzy.

TopographicOceans · September 2, 2015 8:29AM

Returns are a hassle for both the buyer and the seller. Fortunately I rarely get any.
If you want to sell on eBay you offer returns. If you want a 20% FVF discount you have to offer 14-day returns.

Buyers know they just have to say it is SNAD and the return shipping is free and they get all their money back.
You can Report The Buyer, but it goes in a file that is rarely looked at.

I say rarely because I had posted here a few months ago about a return on a $500 toned Morgan and another member had the same thing happen. Both from the same buyer. We both reported him and he got NARU'd.

The buyer didn't claim SNAD but just that they changed their mind, so they paid return shipping and didn't get a refund on S/H.
I'm not sure if eBay NARU'd him for abusing returns, or if they guy just spent too much money he didn't have and closed his account.

LanceNewmanOCC · September 2, 2015 9:49AM

<< that I do care about is that the buyer came out swinging with extorting the refund. That is what set me off.
SELLERS BEWARE >>

it would be nice if people would move a couple of pawns before screaming checkmate.

some people are too fragile.

too many think most members on ebay are scammers and/or idiotas and thusly their first move reflects this. ive found most people to be reasonable when treated as such. about 3-4k transactions so far for me.
.

Bochiman · September 2, 2015 9:53AM

I'm not going to beat the OP up on his policies or how he does business (though, I would likely not do things the same way).

I will say, if that is how the buyer acted/communicated, verbatim and out of the blue, then I would have a problem with the buyer. Plain and simple.
Not a buyer I would want buying from me just because the communication skills are so lacking.

19Lyds · September 2, 2015 10:02AM

<< You did not give us your auction listing, as such, I don't know what the buyer is complaining about. I agree, the buyer could have been more tactful in his communication with you, however, returning it is less costly to you, than having a SNAD claim filed against you. Promptly refund his payment when you receive the item & relist it. FYI there is no such thing as NO RETURNS in the coin category. Only the bullion category has that exemption. >>

Does it really matter Opa?

There are a lot of "On Approval" buyers on eBay simply because of eBays policies to side with the buyer. eBay's philosophies are if there are no buyers then there is no eBay which I believe is exactly opposite of reality. Otherwise, there would be no coin business as there are always plenty of buyers.

In the case of the OP, actions such his buyers initial response would piss me off to no end and as such, earn that buyer a no questions asked "block".

As for the eBay listing? The "issues" exist between the buyer and NGC since NGC gave the coin an MS65, not the seller.

derryb · September 2, 2015 10:02AM

blocked.

Davideo · September 2, 2015 10:26AM

If someone buys your coin and tries to re-sell it on eBay, wait a few days, then buy it. Wait till the last minute, then file a SNAD and return it. At that point, the crook will be past the period to return it back to you. Yes, it is a lot of hassle but it would probably feel pretty sweet.

Broadstruck · September 2, 2015 10:40AM

<< If someone buys your coin and tries to re-sell it on eBay, wait a few days, then buy it. Wait till the last minute, then file a SNAD and return it. At that point, the crook will be past the period to return it back to you. Yes, it is a lot of hassle but it would probably feel pretty sweet. >>

Ha... But there's no way to know if the buyer has intentions of returning if he can't flip it.

TwoSides2aCoin · September 2, 2015 10:40AM

Crack that baby out and re submit.

TigersFan2 · September 2, 2015 11:09AM

Wow. What a change from 2002-2010 when I was playing frequently on Ebay. I got a number of coins that were nowhere near as described, complained to the sellers, and was told to F off in no uncertain terms. Since they had a no return policy there was nothing I could do but NEG them....which I did. Had I returned those coins to those sellers they would have probably kept my money and kept the coins....lol. Been there, done that. Don't send anything back unless you're sure you won't lose 2X as much....lol.

Because a buyer uses Paypal, if he opens a "not as described return," he's guaranteed to get his refund because the Ebay/Paypal system will automatically reverse the charge.

Earlier this year I had an experience as a buyer. I purchased a 1964 PCGS MS64 Kennedy half for $15. But when I got the coin, it was a different PCGS slab than what was used in the auction listing. The auction picture showed a PCGS slab with MS64 coins without any blemishes at all with great photos. The coin I received was a PCGS slab MS64 with a different PCGS# and a big fingerprint on the obverse of the coin that probably toned into it after slabbing. I emailed the seller about sending me the wrong coin. No response. I filed the "item not as described" claim with Ebay. Ebay gave him 4 days to respond and no response. Then Ebay refunded me the $15 from his Paypal account. Still no response from him. I still have the coin. Either he realized the coin wasn't worth paying shipping to get it back or he didn't want to fess up to Ebay about not using accurate pictures with his auctions. And I'm not going to pay shipping to send back his coin. If he wants it, he needs to pay shipping. (Nowhere in his auction text did he state that the coin purchased is a representative coin.)

ebaytrader · September 2, 2015 2:23PM

<< So you stopped offering returns because someone thought your stuff was so under-priced they could buy it from you, mark-it-up enough to cover eBay and PayPal fees plus a profit, and then if they could not sell it for that, they would go through the work and risk of returning coin. So your response was to refuse returns to the other 99.9% of the folks that buy from you. And then you feel defeated by eBay?

Here's the thing. IMHO, everyone and anyone who is not happy with anything should be able to return it. Yes, there are scams, one such was reported here some time ago and ended up with eBay actually revoking the buyer's account. If this person was dumb enough to do what you claim, they would not last long anyway, and besides that, if enough people reported it eBay, they would put a stop to it. Capitalism, if nothing else, is great at milling out "stupid." Add to that that eBay ONLY gets paid on successful deals, and they allow returns anyway, means they are trying to create a buyers environment. That's the game. You tried to outplay it and are now discouraged that you could not.

Edited: Those stupid commas keep moving! >>

Reasonable dealers understand returns from online sales as coins are 3 dimensional items that are presented in a 2 dimensional format. Regardless of the photographic quality it sometimes just doesn't translate to the look in-hand.

What is not reasonable is feepay's SNAD claim format wherein a tire kicker gets to play coin show on the seller's dime. That's b.s.

ms70 · September 2, 2015 2:28PM

Blocked. Sorry for the trouble he caused.

TwoSides2aCoin · September 2, 2015 9:55PM

<< 

What is not reasonable is feepay's SNAD claim format wherein a tire kicker gets to play coin show on the seller's dime. That's b.s. >>

Amen. I think this is the key point the seller makes. And for obvious reasons why it is often said; " ebay sucks." I'm sure it isn't ebay that causes the problem, but they often exacerbate it by taking the wrong side about half the time. They appease our customers and we are their customer. We are the vending machine, but they hold the keys to it.

pf70collector · September 2, 2015 10:08PM

At least he is returning the coin. He could just dispute the charge on AMEX and keep the coin and probably get away with it, telling AMEX really anything like the coin was not what he paid for even though it was. I always try to make the customer happy, even if it means a refund with a no return policy. Of course I don't sell a lot on ebay, maybe 20 high priced items a year. I understand you are mad because the way he forcing you to accept the return, I would be too. Just block him and move on. Ebay won't be on your side because of their loopholes in their policies always favoring the buyer.

oih82w8 · September 2, 2015 11:12PM

I have seen some sellers put a "restocking fee" (10 to 20%) in place...that may discourage some returns or at least have the potential buyer take a really good look at the item.

joebb21 · September 3, 2015 12:35AM

<< I have seen some sellers put a "restocking fee" (10 to 20%) in place...that may discourage some returns or at least have the potential buyer take a really good look at the item. >>

I have thought about this as well however the same issue can take place and the buyer can claim it was not as described or unseen blemish etc. and therefor they should not be responsible for the return. Same argument they can say and file a credit card chargeback

bestday · September 3, 2015 12:55AM

<< 

<< I have seen some sellers put a "restocking fee" (10 to 20%) in place...that may discourage some returns or at least have the potential buyer take a really good look at the item. >>

I have thought about this as well however the same issue can take place and the buyer can claim it was not as described or unseen blemish etc. and therefor they should not be responsible for the return. Same argument they can say and file a credit card chargeback >>

With the Amex card paid it is a lost cause .. they back their for anything cardholders more than Visa ,MC

I have to accept defeat. An ebay return policy story.

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