Pedigree vs. Provenance

Zoins · August 22, 2015 6:35AM

PCGS uses pedigree but a lot of people here seem to use provenance.

Which term do you like better?

Pistareen · August 22, 2015 6:39AM

Pedigree is for dogs and horses.

Until coins start breeding, it's provenance.

(And yes, I still colloquially use both terms interchangeably in conversation but try to avoid using pedigree in print.)

Baley · August 22, 2015 6:41AM

I think of provenance as where it came from (mint collection, shipwreck, buried treasure, museum, etc) and pedigree as who owned it before, particularly if a long and famous list.

Purfrock · August 22, 2015 6:44AM

I've always used the term provenance, but I've never really considered which term is more accurate regarding a coins previous ownership.

CoinJunkie · August 22, 2015 6:51AM

<< Which term do you like better? >>

I prefer the correct term, which is provenance.

Since many coin collectors, and perhaps the population at large, don't seem to care much about proper
English usage, I've tried to relax my standards and expectations in these matters, however.

keyman64 · August 22, 2015 6:56AM

pedigree:
noun
1.
an ancestral line; line of descent; lineage; ancestry.
2.
a genealogical table, chart, list, or record, especially of a purebred animal.
3.
distinguished, excellent, or pure ancestry.
4.
derivation, origin, or history:
the pedigree of a word.
USING PEDIGREE IS A STRETCH WHILE USING THE FOURTH DEFINITION.

provenance:
noun
1.
place or source of origin:
The provenance of the ancient manuscript has never been determined.
MUCH EASIER TO UNDERSTAND WITHOUT IMAGINATION AND ONLY ONE DEFINITION

I vote provenance by a land slide.

Zoins · August 22, 2015 6:58AM

<< pedigree:
noun
1.
an ancestral line; line of descent; lineage; ancestry.
2.
a genealogical table, chart, list, or record, especially of a purebred animal.
3.
distinguished, excellent, or pure ancestry.
4.
derivation, origin, or history:
the pedigree of a word.
USING PEDIGREE IS A STRETCH WHILE USING THE FOURTH DEFINITION.

provenance:
noun
1.
place or source of origin:
The provenance of the ancient manuscript has never been determined.
MUCH EASIER TO UNDERSTAND WITHOUT IMAGINATION AND ONLY ONE DEFINITION

I vote provenance by a land slide.

>>

Those definitions actually seem to match what Baley wrote.

Pedigree is an ancestral line such as a line of owners.

Provenance is a place of origin such as a branch mint.

CoinJunkie · August 22, 2015 7:04AM

prov·e·nance (prŏv′ə-nəns, -näns&#8242

n.
1. Place of origin; derivation.
2.
a. The history of the ownership of an object, especially when documented or authenticated. Used of artworks, antiques, and books.
b. The records or documents authenticating such an object or the history of its ownership.

Ancestor very strongly connotes biological lineage and not the mere history of ownership of an object.
Pedigree is about dogs, not coins.

keyman64 · August 22, 2015 7:07AM

<< 
Those definitions actually seem to match what Baley wrote.

Pedigree could be an ancestral line like a line of owners.

Provenance could be a place of origin like a branch mint. >>

I disagree. Provenance can be "SOURCE OF ORIGIN" ie. the different families or collectors that have owned the coins before the current owner. Source of Origin for current owner might = Who did you buy that from...the source of the coin, the shop, the family, previous famous collector.

If you have to jump to the 4th definition of a word when there are only 4 definitions and even then you have to use a little imagination then it may not be the best fit...IMO.

Zoins · August 22, 2015 7:09AM

<< Provenance can be "SOURCE OF ORIGIN" ie. the different families or collectors that have owned the coins before the current owner. Source of Origin for current owner might = Who did you buy that from...the source of the coin, the shop, the family, previous famous collector. >>

A potential issue with using provenance for a line of owners is that it appears that various mints would be the "source of origin". Various collectors after the "origin" of a coin do not appear that they can be a "source" of that origin.

Perhaps neither definition is a 100% fit since they weren't designed for coins.

keyman64 · August 22, 2015 7:14AM

I understand what you are saying. The original source would be the US MINT then the 1st owner then the 2nd owner....etc all the way to Jim-Bob at the local B&M you bought it from or auction etc.

The provenance uses "source" in the definition. Depending upon the time period discussed, the source can be different...like my source of finding great coins is my favorite dealer, eBay, GreatCollections, Heritage, etc.

CoinJunkie · August 22, 2015 7:16AM

<< A potential issue with using provenance for a line of owners is that it appears that various mints would be the "source of origin". Various collectors after the origin do not appear they can be a "source" of origin.

Perhaps neither definition is a 100% fit since they weren't designed for coins. >>

The provenance of a coin begins at its mint and continues through its line of owners or curators.

A coin can be construed as an artwork or at least an artifact. Provenance is the correct term. I don't even know why this is subject to debate, frankly.

keyman64 · August 22, 2015 7:19AM

<< The provenance of a coin begins at its mint and continues through its line of owners or curators.

A coin can be construed as an artwork or at least an artifact. Provenance is the correct term. I don't even know why this is subject to debate, frankly. >>

That's how I feel about it.

Zoins · August 22, 2015 7:20AM

<< Provenance is the correct term. >>

Coin collecting isn't always a hobby of correct terms. For example, even when definitions are very clear there can be a preference to use alternate terms, e.g. using the term restrike for a lot of copy coins.

<< I don't even know why this is subject to debate, frankly. >>

Well, PCGS uses pedigree which is one reason for the question.

Twobitcollector · August 22, 2015 9:06AM

I don't care what on the label it's whats inside the slab that counts

roadrunner · August 22, 2015 9:22AM

Pedigree is a lot easier/faster to type....at least for me.

Analyst · August 22, 2015 11:07AM

Zoins: <<Those definitions actually seem to match what Baley wrote.

Pedigree is an ancestral line such as a line of owners.

Provenance is a place of origin such as a branch mint.>>

Yes

keets · August 22, 2015 12:11PM

I tend to prefer "Provenance" but this thread and topic sort of remind me of one of the old Disme pronunciation threads.

--- the first definition given for a word is generally accepted as the primary usage definition.

Boosibri · August 22, 2015 2:27PM

I like JK's response best, though I wish my coins would copulate and multiply. What do you get when you cross a dirty Charlotte half eagle with a gem Philly $5?

okracer · August 22, 2015 2:31PM

In Archaeological communities we use two words: "Provenance", and "Provenience" ( the second word with an "i" in it).

"Provenance" refers to the collector history of the archaeological item. ( this pot was an ex-Billy collection, and an ex-Johnny collection). This sounds like the use of both "Pedigree" and "Provenance" in our coins discussion.

"Provenience" refers to the original source from where the item came. ( such as an ancient pot was excavated from a certain location in Egypt).

....just my 2 cents worth of info....

Pedigree vs. Provenance

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