HYPOTHETICAL:Coins stolen.What would you do?
mr1931S
Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
HYPOTHETICAL:
I steal someone's coin collection.Now,i'm not very smart about coins,or anything for that matter, but i know this collection is worth quite a bit of money,it being comprised of eleven $20 gold coins.I notice they are dated from 1908 to 1928.There is one coin in this collection that has a little 'D' on the front,on top of the date and it's dated 1927.In fact,this coin is different from the other nine in having this feature,a 'D' on the front.A few of the coins have a tiny 'S' on the front.I say to myself,"Wow.That eagle on the back of these is awesome.I'm gonna keep one as a souvenir for myself to enjoy.The 1914 is the one I am going to keep for myself since it's the shiniest."
I take the collection,sans the 1914 that i'm keeping,to this little hole-in-the-wall coin shop to see what I can get for it.I've passed by this shop many times but have never actually gone into it.I'm armed with fake id just in case the shop owner asks me for identification.
The shop owner will pay me bullion price for nine of the pieces,but tells me he can give me a little more for the 1927 with the 'D.' He tells me he can give me 50% above bullion price for this one since he has a client who needs this date for his collection.I suspect the coins could bring me more somewhere else but I'm just interested in some haggle-free quick cash.The owner asks to see my ID because of the large amount of money involved so I produce my fake ID for him. The owner and I exchange pleasantries after the sale and out the door I go with a fistful of cash,$15,000.
Police get report that a collection of $20 Double Eagles has been stolen from a wealthy coin collector.They check area coin and pawn shops and bingo! they find 9 of the 11 coins stolen working off a list of items stolen that the collector has provided.Police report to the collector that the '27-D and '14 are not among the group of the collector's stolen $20's they found at the shop.
Hearing this causes the collector great dismay.
He tells police,"Believe it or not,the '27-D that was stolen from me was the centerpiece of my collection and is worth a great deal of money,like 1/2 million dollars.My grandpa found this coin in circulation long ago.It's been in our family for decades.The other coins taken don't mean that much to me but that.......that......'27-D...." Sobbing,seemingly in great agony,the collector asks police,"Is the shop owner sure he didn't buy the '27-D along with the other coins?" The collector is told by police,"No,the shop owner says he bought 9 coins only from the fellow and paid $15,000 for them."
After throwing up his lunch there in front of police,the collector begins to ponder what,if anything,he can do.
You are the collector.What would you do?
edited:'D','S's on front,not back of these.This is not my series,obviously.Sorry for any confusion.
I steal someone's coin collection.Now,i'm not very smart about coins,or anything for that matter, but i know this collection is worth quite a bit of money,it being comprised of eleven $20 gold coins.I notice they are dated from 1908 to 1928.There is one coin in this collection that has a little 'D' on the front,on top of the date and it's dated 1927.In fact,this coin is different from the other nine in having this feature,a 'D' on the front.A few of the coins have a tiny 'S' on the front.I say to myself,"Wow.That eagle on the back of these is awesome.I'm gonna keep one as a souvenir for myself to enjoy.The 1914 is the one I am going to keep for myself since it's the shiniest."
I take the collection,sans the 1914 that i'm keeping,to this little hole-in-the-wall coin shop to see what I can get for it.I've passed by this shop many times but have never actually gone into it.I'm armed with fake id just in case the shop owner asks me for identification.
The shop owner will pay me bullion price for nine of the pieces,but tells me he can give me a little more for the 1927 with the 'D.' He tells me he can give me 50% above bullion price for this one since he has a client who needs this date for his collection.I suspect the coins could bring me more somewhere else but I'm just interested in some haggle-free quick cash.The owner asks to see my ID because of the large amount of money involved so I produce my fake ID for him. The owner and I exchange pleasantries after the sale and out the door I go with a fistful of cash,$15,000.
Police get report that a collection of $20 Double Eagles has been stolen from a wealthy coin collector.They check area coin and pawn shops and bingo! they find 9 of the 11 coins stolen working off a list of items stolen that the collector has provided.Police report to the collector that the '27-D and '14 are not among the group of the collector's stolen $20's they found at the shop.
Hearing this causes the collector great dismay.
He tells police,"Believe it or not,the '27-D that was stolen from me was the centerpiece of my collection and is worth a great deal of money,like 1/2 million dollars.My grandpa found this coin in circulation long ago.It's been in our family for decades.The other coins taken don't mean that much to me but that.......that......'27-D...." Sobbing,seemingly in great agony,the collector asks police,"Is the shop owner sure he didn't buy the '27-D along with the other coins?" The collector is told by police,"No,the shop owner says he bought 9 coins only from the fellow and paid $15,000 for them."
After throwing up his lunch there in front of police,the collector begins to ponder what,if anything,he can do.
You are the collector.What would you do?
edited:'D','S's on front,not back of these.This is not my series,obviously.Sorry for any confusion.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
0
Comments
Beyond that, there isn't all that much you can do. Jumping up and down won't help. A coin like a 27-D would surface sooner or later. It wouldn't take much actual police work to figure out where it came from.
I don't know.Maybe.Who is this Saul that you speak of?
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Unless you have detailed super close up pics, I say it's almost impossible to conclusively prove the hypothetical coin was the stolen coin.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>Is calling Saul an option?
I don't know.Maybe.Who is this Saul that you speak of? >>
Actor Bob Odenkirk, playing Saul Goodman, a sleazy yet still somewhat likeable ambulance-chaser attorney in the TV series "Breaking Bad", who operates on both sides of the law as a "fixer".
Now the protagonist of a spinoff series called "Better Call Saul", which I'm looking forward to seeing.
Saul actually sounds like the kind of guy to call here.
I would, in this hypothetical situation publicly note that all coins recovered outside of the D coin be auctioned off by whomever finds the perp when he/she/it is selling that 1914 $20 gold piece (a "shinny gold coin" worth $1200 will be turned into cash by any non-collector/investor, especially by a criminal).
Give 20% of sales of recovered coins to consigner and let same consigner donate the other 80% of sale to charity of their choice. Prosecute both losers but allow for original perp to plea for a shorter sentence by ratting out the other perp whom ripped him off buying the D coin for chump change and then lied about purchasing it from him. Hopefully this would aid in finding the location of the D coin.
In the end...hopefully you get your Big D Coin back and two losers are sent to prison, a hero is rewarded...and good people in need benefit
All hypothetical of course.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Better hope the thief gets caught and he tells the police the shop owner has the coin. But it would be the thief's word against the shop owner. Hard to prove the shop owner has the coin. As mentioned, the police would want to see the security camera footage to identify the thief if there is a camera. Of course the shop owner could just say the security footage gets re-recorded daily destroying the evidence.
If I were the owner, I would not want to believe the shop owner does not have the coin. Seems unlikely the thief knew what he had. But then again why would the thief not investigate what kind of coins he had. Maybe the shop owner doesn't have the coin.
The coin owner could watch auction venues and hope the coin surfaces. He would notify the collecting community of the stolen coin. The rarity of the coin would help it being recovered.
It all depends if the shop owner is dumb enough to try to sell it right away which I doubt he would. He would not even risk a private sale. He would probably just put the coin away for 10-20 years.
I would say in such a scenario that the coin would not likely be recovered unless a search warrant is issued to the shop owner. But by then, the coin could be in the possession of someone the shop owner trusts for safe keeping.
Box of 20
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
Some time passed.
A person came in to sell coins, and they were some of the ones that were stolen, still in the boxes, labeled, etc.
Owner got another person to call police, and the person was caught.
Except the person was just some smuck who had bought them online for cheap $$.
The police traced it back to the actual thief, and recovered more, but not the bullion type coins. They had been sold to another dealer. That dealer denied knowledge of the coins, and basically told everyone to pound sand.
That would tell you where the missing coins actually are.
If the coin store had video it certainly has been erased.
Gold coins in general and Double Eagles in particular hardly ever circulated. I don't think
a circulated 27-D has ever turned up.
Very unlikely there would be any insurance coverage for the theft. A coin collection would have to
have separate coverage and it would be very expensive.
In my scenario, the thief sees an article about the 27-D on TV and
anonymously notifies the police that he sold it to the coin shop.
I have been on the lookout for 3 separate high value coins that are missing for 1 year plus.
The original thief is smart enough to monitor the news.The story soon comes out,"Extremely valuable rare coin stolen from local collector."
The original thief figures he better be outta there,goes to another state and has some new fake ID made up to help support his criminal enterprise.He sells the 1914 Saint,not wanting to get caught with it.The coin garners him another $1000.He is told by the second shop owner that the coin might be worth more than $1000 but has been cleaned (this is a "white" fib,the second shop owner sees the 1914 coin as a really nice unc.,possibly worth multiples of $1000 after slabbing.Can't be too sure though until professional grading/slabbing and authentication has happened.
Thief has volunteered the lie to the second shop owner that he inherited the 1914 coin from his grandpa,would like to keep it,but needs the cash badly.Second shop owner has innocently bought the stolen 1914 Saint,albeit paying too little for it.The second shop owner has innocently bought into the story,as well.Second shop owner has built his business on honesty and trust.Second owner is an ethical coin dealer who would never knowingly buy stolen coins.Reputation is sterling,above reproach,even though he is known for occasionally low-balling folks who offer him coins for sale. "Go somewhere else with your coin if you don't like my offer," he has no problem saying to a seller who complains about being low-balled.
Meanwhile,local authorities back home have been unable to get anywhere in their investigation.The thief has vanished.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I wore the hypothetical thief hat in the OP.Now,I'm taking it off and am wearing a new hat,the hat of the shop owner who has the Collectors '27-D Saint Gaudens gold piece in his possession.
HYPOTHETICAL:
I'm the coin shop owner who has purchased a now known to be hot,extremely valuable rare coin,for only $15,000.I definitely don't want to get caught in possession of it for serious jail time awaits me in that eventuality.I've already told police that I didn't buy the highly sought '27-D Saint across my shop's counter.The amount that I paid for the 9 gold coins,in cash,is not suspicious,I reason.I figure that I might be able to pull this off and make some serious big money,money that I've never had before, if I'm smart about it.I realize,
however,that I am very likely under suspicion now for knowingly receiving stolen property.After all,eleven coins were stolen and I have bought nine of them.Maybe I bought the other two coins, people will be thinking.
Authorities question me about the thief seller.Now,I don't want this guy found so volunteer as little information as I think I can get away with.There is a video security system in place in my store but I forgot to turn it on,I tell authorities.The truth is the system was working but I destroy this evidence which could easily put me in prison if the original thief is caught and sings by erasing the video.
I lied to the thief who sold me the coins about having a client for the '27 with the 'D' on top of the date.I have no such client.This is a coin for the "big boys",the collectors with plenty of money for coin purchases. It would be stupid for me to try to sell this coin online,I reason.In any event,I figure I've got to get the '27-D out of the shop in case a search warrant of the shop is executed.I bury the coin into the ground in my backyard,under the dog house.
No '27-D will be found on the premises and video of the crime does not exist.I will figure out later what to do with the '27-D.Meanwhile,its safe under my Rotwieler's house in the back yard.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You are still the collector.You have gotten nine of your stolen Saints back but am disgusted about not getting recovery of the '14 and especially,the '27-D. Insurance,which you do have,will help cover the monetary loss but you see getting mere money as an inadequate remedy.You want your '14 and '27-D back and am ready to take whatever legal action might be available to you to that end. The excuse offered for there being no video existing of the transaction is rankling to you.
You need to do more to recover the valuable coins that your grandpa gave you so begin to wonder,"Is there enough probable cause to obtain a search warrant of the shop?" Even if a search of the shop doesn't turn up the coins,you reason that the act of searching alone sends the powerful message to the shop owner,"I don't believe you when you say you don't have my coins.You better look out."
The hypothetical players in the scenario of this thread are (1)the Collector (2)the thief (3)the 1st shop owner and now,(4)the 2nd shop owner.
Is there enough probable cause for the Collector to successfully obtain a warrant for a search of the 1st shop?
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.