eBay buyer claims counterfeit slab UPDATE in 1st post

UtahCoin · April 18, 2015 12:52AM

Buyer calls me this morning claiming the coin is in a counterfeit slab. Wants a refund, AND doesn't want to return it for fear that it will re-enter the market.

Here's the reply I sent;
Dear cgfive33,

Thank you for contacting me about your concerns with the coin you purchased. I take this very seriously as this reflects on my reputation as a coin dealer for close to 30 years. Counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs are a serious concern to all. I have seen in hand a couple of counterfeit slabs out of China, and while not perfect, they would fool a lot of people. I do believe this is a genuine coin and slab for several reasons. First, the coin came from Heritage in Dallas, one of the most reputable coin dealers. Second, counterfeiters in general go with much more expensive coins. Third, the slab has none of the tell tell signs that give the counterfeit slabs away, and fourth the Cert. is valid. That being said, until I have the slab in hand, I cannot be 100% sure. I will also forward your concerns about this slab and coin to Don Willis of PCGS. If you will return the coin I will issue a refund upon receipt, and if it is a counterfeit I will also refund your return shipping.

Buyer opened a SNAD with eBay. His description of the problem, "Fake PCGS holder, this is very wrong and disrespectful to the numismatic community. And I want my money back"

After a couple of email exchanges, he decides to take it to a coin shop and ask a real coin dealer. The dealer told him it was genuine, so he's keeping the coin. But now I have a strike against me with eBay....

Rampage · April 18, 2015 1:01AM

Looks fine to me. A counterfeiter would not waste time on that coin in my opinion.

oih82w8 · April 18, 2015 1:06AM

I don't see anything suspect about the coin. Agreed, a counterfeiter would not waste their time on a small fish.

AUandAG · April 18, 2015 1:15AM

I see nothing wrong with that slab (or coin).

bob

Buyer is suspect though. Blocked buyer, thanks.

LindeDad · April 18, 2015 1:17AM

I see no indication that it is not real. Stick to your policy.

telephoto1 · April 18, 2015 1:18AM

From what I can see the holder and coin both look fine. I don't buy the buyer's story; sounds like he decided he wants a free coin. Tell him he can't have it both ways; either return for a refund or keep it-but not both.
Also, make sure that the returned coin and holder are the same ones sent.

BTW-Counterfeiters actually do holder coins like this; I've had Asian fake VDBs in bogus slabs come into our store in the recent past, but they're usually the typical bluish label stuff.

DennisH · April 18, 2015 1:18AM

Genuine coin and slab.

On the other hand, buyer's knowledge and/or motives are highly suspect.

TopographicOceans · April 18, 2015 1:19AM

Just another of the nice people on eBay.

But perhaps your cautions (which make up about 1/3 of your ad text) are influencing clueless buyers in the wrong direction?
Though your intent is noble, I'd suggest removing it from your listings.
Maybe change it to "Sure eBay is s#@! hole, but I guarantee all my coins are genuine."

A word of caution.
Lately several unscrupulous sellers are listing circulation strike 1964 Kennedy half dollars as the Accented Hair variety. Don't fall for their scam! Only the Proof issue is the genuine Accented Hair variety.

eBay scam of the day
A few counterfeit coins are showing up in counterfeit PCGS slabs, not many, but something to be aware of. The scammers are using serial numbers off of legitimate slabs, many of them from past Heritage (HA.com) auctions. If you suspect something, check the Heritage site for past auctions and see if the photos of the coins match. Or, you can ask me and I'll check it out for you

A lot of coin dealers use eBay as a dumping ground for "Problem" coins and sets. The last thing they want to do is sell a problem coin to a customer in their store and then have the buyer find out he bought junk. Some other sellers are out and out thieves. At one time in the recent past, probably half the Trade Dollars on eBay were Chinese Cast Counterfeits. Resealed boxed proof sets are common, as are restapled early cellophane coin sleeves. Consider the sellers who offer a never ending supply of "Unsearched" rolls purchased at an "Estate Sale". They artificially "age" paper rolls, stick a decent 1909 Indian Cent showing on one end and the other end will show an Indian Cent reverse with an "S" Mint Mark. Or the roll of Mercury dimes with a 1916 obverse showing on one end and a D Mint reverse showing on the other end. They want you to believe that maybe, just maybe, you might find a roll of valuable coins. Isn't that nice of them to let you in on this potential gold mine of riches? They even invent non-existent banks. One seller had “sealed rolls” of dollars from the "Carson City National Bank". Just be careful and don't believe everything you hear. For every legitimate good deal out there, there are thousands of rip offs. If you have any questions about coins, USC Football or UCLA (John Wooden era) Basketball, just ask me. Seriously, I don't mind answering questions about coins in general or auctions in particular. I'm happy to offer my opinion based on 50+ years of coin collecting and coin dealer experience. If you are looking for the cheapest price, you might as well move along as you won't find them here. The coins I offer here are top tier, worthy of any collection unless noted. When I have a coin with some sort of a problem, I will describe it. And now, a word about pricing. If the price guides (Greysheet, PCGS, Coin World, recent auctions, etc.) say a proof set is worth $100, does that mean that every one is worth a $100? NO! Consider one that is gem quality, excellent strike, cameos. Another of the same year is spotted, ugly toning and weak strike. Are they both worth the same price? Of course not (although some dealers would like you to believe that). The gem set might be worth $200 and the ugly one $50. One last thing. Just remember that great coins are not cheap, and cheap coins are not great.

bigjpst · April 18, 2015 1:24AM

I see nothing wrong with the coin or slab either. The buyer is trying to steal the coin from you. I would keep all of your responses as cool and professional as your first. You will likely spend some time on the phone with ebay on this one, whether it is to get your coin back, or to get the negative removed that he is most certainly going to leave.

BAJJERFAN · April 18, 2015 1:25AM

Just when you think you've heard it all, you haven't heard it all. You were more diplomatic than the terd deserves, IMO.

Mark · April 18, 2015 1:51AM

UtahCoin:

I saw your thread about the buyer claiming a counterfeit slab, clicked the link and then read your write up. Your essay is about 110% fascinating and 120% correct--especially about the scams pulled on eBay. So, as I got to the end of what you had written, I scrolled down the page a bit to eBay's "see what other people are watching" and what did I see: Amongst the 13 entries are 2 washing machines (??) and, irony of irony, 5 "original bank sealed wheat penny rolls."

Mark

georgiacop50 · April 18, 2015 2:06AM

blocked

Barndog · April 18, 2015 2:10AM

cgfive33 is either an uninformed collector or a pure scammer

CaptHenway · April 18, 2015 2:10AM

Fraudulent buyer trying to rip you off figuring you won't fight over a coin of this price. Stick to your guns!

291fifth · April 18, 2015 2:24AM

Unfortunately, I suspect this transaction is going to cause you more grief than it is worth. The tip-off is the line about the buyer not wanting to return it because he is afraid it will reenter the marketplace. Talk about a red flag regarding this buyer.

Under no circumstances should you agree to giving him a refund without return of the coin. I just hope eBay/PayPal doesn't side with him. Let us know what happens.

lcoopie · April 18, 2015 2:25AM

You're thoughtful response is likely wasted on this "person".

Please return the coin intact and a refund will be immediately issued, it is not counterfeit.

1Mike1 · April 18, 2015 2:38AM

Just another scumbag looking for a free ride. No coin - no refund would be the only option I would offer.

Sonorandesertrat · April 18, 2015 2:44AM

<< I see nothing wrong with the coin or slab either. The buyer is trying to steal the coin from you. I would keep all of your responses as cool and professional as your first. You will likely spend some time on the phone with ebay on this one, whether it is to get your coin back, or to get the negative removed that he is most certainly going to leave. >>

bigjpst · April 18, 2015 2:46AM

<< Unfortunately, I suspect this transaction is going to cause you more grief than it is worth. The tip-off is the line about the buyer not wanting to return it because he is afraid it will reenter the marketplace. Talk about a red flag regarding this buyer.

Under no circumstances should you agree to giving him a refund without return of the coin. I just hope eBay/PayPal doesn't side with him. Let us know what happens. >>

There is a member here on this board who has done this before. Purchasing more expensive counterfeits and basically forcing ebay to let him keep the coin for this very reason. Hope it works out for the op. At least it is an inexpensive coin.

agentjim007 · April 18, 2015 2:47AM

eBay will not go along with his request, let him file a dispute. I bought 5 fake ASE on eBay and I had to return them before I got a refund ( I didn't try to keep them, i couldn't Send them back fast enough). Interesting thing is my scammer also provided eBay PayPal a fake return address and when UPS tracking said undeliverable return to sender eBay refunded my money at that time. Got my money and the fake ASE which my granddaughter uses as toys.

ebaytrader · April 18, 2015 2:51AM

He's just practicing for bigger scams later on.

I do see a defect in your near future, tho.

TomB · April 18, 2015 2:58AM

I think you should offer a full refund upon return (as you have) and also tell him you will give him a separate refund for his return postage costs, also after receipt, so that there is one less "impediment" to his complying with return of the coin.

Cougar1978 · April 18, 2015 3:09AM

Well isn't that nice of him to be concerned the coin not re-enter the market.

There is nothing counterfeit about the coin / holder. I would not refund him until the coin was returned. He could stuff it for all I care. It is nothing more than a scam on his part. Furthermore if things got really nasty I would threaten him with mail fraud charges bc that is what this is.

I would fight him thru ebay. When times are tough, I have found the scum like him start coming out.

Have blocked him.

mbogoman · April 18, 2015 3:10AM

I'm no Lincoln expert, but that slab is absolutely legit. The label and plastic diagnostics are all 100% spot on...

Edit to add: Blocked. Thanks for the heads up!

pennyannie · April 18, 2015 3:27AM

Another guy that wants to save the world at your expense on a hunch.

Return it or forget it.

Barndog · April 18, 2015 3:28AM

I blocked him too

Tookybandit · April 18, 2015 3:41AM

<< I blocked him too >>

+3

segoja · April 18, 2015 3:56AM

Blocked

Hope you gets worked out.

Only on e-bay gotta love it

TJM965 · April 18, 2015 4:00AM

If he gives you a problem, send him this thread.

kiyote · April 18, 2015 4:37AM

I haaaaate being on the seller end of a dispute like this.

Klif50 · April 18, 2015 5:06AM

I'd buy the coin from you without any hesitation. If he sends it back and you want a quick sale. let me know.
Klif

Zoins · April 18, 2015 9:19AM

<< BTW-Counterfeiters actually do holder coins like this; I've had Asian fake VDBs in bogus slabs come into our store in the recent past, but they're usually the typical bluish label stuff. >>

I can imagine fake VDBs in fake holders being relatively common.

Good to know about your experience agentjim007.

Hope it works out either way, get paid or get you coin back. Sounds frustrating.

Wolf359 · April 18, 2015 9:43AM

<< Genuine coin and slab.

On the other hand, buyer's knowledge and/or motives are highly suspect. >>

Exactly.

ScarsdaleCoin · April 18, 2015 9:50AM

Very simple solution, have him send the coin to PCGS .... if the coin is fake you will refund all his money and expenses... if the coin is fake PCGS will have it so it will not reenter the market... if the coin is real, he will have a ok from the horse's mouth (Don not calling you a horse LOL)

that should do it

roadrunner · April 18, 2015 10:20AM

<< Very simple solution, have him send the coin to PCGS .... if the coin is fake you will refund all his money and expenses... if the coin is fake PCGS will have it so it will not reenter the market... if the coin is real, he will have a ok from the horse's mouth (Don not calling you a horse LOL)

that should do it >>

My thoughts exactly. You beat me to it. Unfortunately after they go through the drill of sending it back to PCGS to find out the coin and holder are indeed legit.....they will be out another $40-$50....making it one heck of an expensive MS64 1909-vdb. One potential problem. The guy could be a counterfeiter/scam artist and is all set to send PCGS a fake coin and/or holder while keeping your coin. An additional step will have to be taken by PCGS to ensure he sends them the coin you sent him.

BAJJERFAN · April 18, 2015 10:27AM

Clever that he called you instead of messaging you. eBay should NARU him for trying to extort you.

lkeigwin · April 18, 2015 10:29AM

Slab is fine. Coin's a dog. Buyer's a loser.
Lance.

grote15 · April 18, 2015 10:29AM

Definitely a scammer. I also agree with topographic oceans~I almost think he is pulling this con because of your stern warning regarding counterfeits and dishonest members like himself.

keyman64 · April 18, 2015 11:41AM

<< Slab is fine. Coin's a dog. Buyer's a loser.
Lance. >>

+1

NumisOxide · April 18, 2015 12:09PM

That definitely sounds suspect.

Raufus · April 18, 2015 1:01PM

The buyer is a true protector of the hobby - how noble to keep the coin for free just to prevent it from entering the pool again. A real numismatic Paladin.

Truly a novel new way for scum to steal on eBay. Wow. "Buyer" is obviously just a crook.

Very nice reply, more than he deserves.

Definitely stick to your guns.

Good luck!! Please let us know how it works out.

bestday · April 18, 2015 1:54PM

<< Unfortunately, I suspect this transaction is going to cause you more grief than it is worth. The tip-off is the line about the buyer not wanting to return it because he is afraid it will reenter the marketplace. Talk about a red flag regarding this buyer.

Under no circumstances should you agree to giving him a refund without return of the coin. I just hope eBay/PayPal doesn't side with him. Let us know what happens. >>

Ebay will let buyer keep the coin and refund all his money .. just happened to a coin club member on a 40 dollar coin

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD · April 18, 2015 3:56PM

...he has been blocked accordingly

Raufus · April 19, 2015 5:03AM

As a seller 2 of the crook's 7 feedbacks are negative.

Raufus · April 19, 2015 5:07AM

Should add, jerk is blocked. Thanks for outing the piece of garbage.

asheland · April 20, 2015 1:23AM

coin22lover · April 20, 2015 1:30AM

I have to say that, paradoxically, selling cheap coins on Ebay seems more risky than selling expensive-ish coins on Ebay.

telephoto1 · April 20, 2015 1:35AM

<< I have to say that, paradoxically, selling cheap coins on Ebay seems more risky than selling expensive-ish coins on Ebay. >>

I've said that for years myself. I don't know if anyone's kept statistics on it, but I'm willing to bet money that the overwhelming number of problem eBay transactions involve amounts of less than $100, perhaps less than $50.

david3142 · April 20, 2015 2:46AM

I had this same thing happen to me when I sold a pair of my wife's old sunglasses. The buyer claimed they were fake and opened a complaint with eBay before I could even respond. Now, I know absolutely nothing about sunglasses so it's possible she was correct. Although even "fake" sunglasses are still in fact, working sunglasses. The price she paid was about $9 with shipping, and I think the shades are a few hundred new. I gave a full refund and she kept the glasses. For that extra $3 I just left it alone. At the end she gave me a neutral feedback. I hate having an "item not genuine" complaint in my feedback when the only other things I would sell are coins, and that wasn't even a coin.

I hope it works out better for you!

CoinJunkie · April 20, 2015 4:31AM

<< Another guy that wants to save the world at your expense on a hunch. >>

I think you're giving the guy far too much credit here...

segoja · April 20, 2015 1:12PM

99% of my problem transactions are under $100. Most under $10. People expect $50 worth of coins for $10.

Please keep us posted on the outcome of this.

eBay buyer claims counterfeit slab UPDATE in 1st post

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eBay buyer claims counterfeit slab ***UPDATE*** in 1st post

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eBay buyer claims counterfeit slab UPDATE in 1st post