If a coin is sent in five times and gets an MS-65 each time, and then is sent in a sixth time and gets an MS-66, and then is sent in a seventh time and gets an MS-65, has it been downgraded?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
If a coin is sent in five times and gets an MS-65 each time, and then is sent in a sixth time and gets an MS-66, and then is sent in a seventh time and gets an MS-65, has it been downgraded? >>
Generally speaking, no. If the first six submissions were from an owner who then sold the coin at MS66 and the new owner decided to submit the coin, the new owner will perceive it was downgraded not having the knowledge of previous submissions.
Now across the street he is saying one coin got scratched when it was sent in for grading- sounds more likely it was scratched cracking it out to me. For such a big submitter it's kind of strange how he is taking this after a couple of downgrades considering how he has been such a huge submitter all these years???
<< <i>Last time I had a coin cracked out was in the summer of 2013 on a 1904 Saint in PCGS/CAC MS-66 from Legend Numismatics and wondercoin resubmitted it raw and it upgraded to PCGS MS-66+
You have to really pick and choose very carefully this crack out game.
I prefer the crossover game. At least, your risk is minimized, >>
Read the first line of this post closely, it raises even more concerns in my mind.......
What we've got here is failure to communicate.....
Yep! There should be a constant standard at all times no matter who is submitting. When grading is based on who you are and how many times you send a coin in, does not make for an honest hobby. It causes people to lose interest and there fore the hobby will die, eventually. I have hundreds of coins I would like to have graded but I know the out come, and I won't play, though I would love to.
Bulk grading should be stopped, half of them are not even looked at and come back ACES, which they are not.
Labels, really get to me, it has become the Label game not the coin game.
Just many things that are tearing the Coin Collecting Community apart.
I have not been to a coin show in 4 years. I has become that ridiculous to me.
I wanted to see the images of the coins so I went ats. He should have left them alone. My post over there is as follows:
"Based on what I see, OP should have left well enough alone because although the coins are very nice, the original grades were pretty much end of the road IMO, at least as far as I can tell from the images provided.
But- regardless of my opinion, first and foremost OP's cardinal mistake was breaking them out of the holders rather than simply sending them in for reconsideration. That way at most he'd have been out some reconsideration/grading fees, the grades would have either stayed the same or gone up and none of this silly drama would have been necessary.
Second mistake... thinking that a TPG has any responsibility for something after it has been removed from their holder. You can threaten litigation all you want but in the end all you'll have is less money to show for it. A TPG has no control over what happens to something removed from their sealed holder, period. That would be like me selling you a wrapped loaf of bread and then calling me responsible for it being stale after you opened it. If I had to take an educated guess, I'm thinking the "mark" was either already there or happened when OP broke it out of the holder.
Finally-As to a chargeback, all that the TPG has to prove is that they rendered the services paid for, which were to grade the coins in question... and they did precisely that...so they'll win there also. "
Pcgs is a company that you pay for their professional opinion. He paid , and got their professional opinion. They did their service that was paid for and I respect that and their opinions. Thus the reason most of us are here , we trust their opinions .
<< <i>I wanted to see the images of the coins so I went ats. He should have left them alone. My post over there is as follows:
"Based on what I see, OP should have left well enough alone because although the coins are very nice, the original grades were pretty much end of the road IMO, at least as far as I can tell from the images provided.
But- regardless of my opinion, first and foremost OP's cardinal mistake was breaking them out of the holders rather than simply sending them in for reconsideration. That way at most he'd have been out some reconsideration/grading fees, the grades would have either stayed the same or gone up and none of this silly drama would have been necessary.
Second mistake... thinking that a TPG has any responsibility for something after it has been removed from their holder. You can threaten litigation all you want but in the end all you'll have is less money to show for it. A TPG has no control over what happens to something removed from their sealed holder, period. That would be like me selling you a wrapped loaf of bread and then calling me responsible for it being stale after you opened it. If I had to take an educated guess, I'm thinking the "mark" was either already there or happened when OP broke it out of the holder.
Finally-As to a chargeback, all that the TPG has to prove is that they rendered the services paid for, which were to grade the coins in question... and they did precisely that...so they'll win there also. " >>
And there as here, I agree with you, that's pretty much it.
<< <i>Last time I had a coin cracked out was in the summer of 2013 on a 1904 Saint in PCGS/CAC MS-66 from Legend Numismatics and wondercoin resubmitted it raw and it upgraded to PCGS MS-66+
You have to really pick and choose very carefully this crack out game.
I prefer the crossover game. At least, your risk is minimized, >>
Read the first line of this post closely, it raises even more concerns in my mind....... >>
<< Last time I had a coin cracked out was in the summer of 2013 on a 1904 Saint in PCGS/CAC MS-66 from Legend Numismatics and wondercoin resubmitted it raw and it upgraded to PCGS MS-66+
You have to really pick and choose very carefully this crack out game.
I prefer the crossover game. At least, your risk is minimized, >>
Read the first line of this post closely, it raises even more concerns in my mind.......
***********
Banker bob.... I read this line very closely as you suggested and Yes, it does raise very serious conerns!! Can you imagine Wondercoin cracking out a 1904 Saint! What idiot would even touch a 1904 saint? !!!!!! LOL
More importantly, the owner of the coin (not a Saint obviously) has no idea how I got his fabulous "Saint" upgraded. He simply sent it out to me in the holder and left the rest to me. And, his coin was deserving of the upgrade... He failed to mention that (according to what he told me) he paid a very sizeable premium to what a "typical" MS66 was worth at the time to buy this premium coin from Legend. In conclusion, can one even imagine the chances that an esteemed collector from our boards (with an eagle eye for great coins) buying a premium quality example of a coin from Legend at a premium asking price and sending it to Wondercoin to try to get a + on the piece And the coin actually getting a + on it. What are the chances of that happening.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
If a coin is sent in five times and gets an MS-65 each time, and then is sent in a sixth time and gets an MS-66, and then is sent in a seventh time and gets an MS-65, has it been downgraded?
<< <i>I do not like bad eggs and bamm's,
I do not like them Joe-I-am!! >>
I love you, keets… But you already knew this .
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>As I asked ATS, a hypothetical question:
If a coin is sent in five times and gets an MS-65 each time, and then is sent in a sixth time and gets an MS-66, and then is sent in a seventh time and gets an MS-65, has it been downgraded? >>
Generally speaking, no. If the first six submissions were from an owner who then sold the coin at MS66 and the new owner decided to submit the coin, the new owner will perceive it was downgraded not having the knowledge of previous submissions.
<< <i>I do not like bad eggs and bamm's,
I do not like them Joe-I-am!! >>
<< <i>Last time I had a coin cracked out was in the summer of 2013 on a 1904 Saint in PCGS/CAC MS-66 from Legend Numismatics and wondercoin resubmitted it raw and it upgraded to PCGS MS-66+
You have to really pick and choose very carefully this crack out game.
I prefer the crossover game. At least, your risk is minimized, >>
Read the first line of this post closely, it raises even more concerns in my mind.......
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
Bulk grading should be stopped, half of them are not even looked at and come back ACES, which they are not.
Labels, really get to me, it has become the Label game not the coin game.
Just many things that are tearing the Coin Collecting Community apart.
I have not been to a coin show in 4 years. I has become that ridiculous to me.
"Based on what I see, OP should have left well enough alone because although the coins are very nice, the original grades were pretty much end of the road IMO, at least as far as I can tell from the images provided.
But- regardless of my opinion, first and foremost OP's cardinal mistake was breaking them out of the holders rather than simply sending them in for reconsideration. That way at most he'd have been out some reconsideration/grading fees, the grades would have either stayed the same or gone up and none of this silly drama would have been necessary.
Second mistake... thinking that a TPG has any responsibility for something after it has been removed from their holder. You can threaten litigation all you want but in the end all you'll have is less money to show for it. A TPG has no control over what happens to something removed from their sealed holder, period. That would be like me selling you a wrapped loaf of bread and then calling me responsible for it being stale after you opened it. If I had to take an educated guess, I'm thinking the "mark" was either already there or happened when OP broke it out of the holder.
Finally-As to a chargeback, all that the TPG has to prove is that they rendered the services paid for, which were to grade the coins in question... and they did precisely that...so they'll win there also. "
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I wanted to see the images of the coins so I went ats. He should have left them alone. My post over there is as follows:
"Based on what I see, OP should have left well enough alone because although the coins are very nice, the original grades were pretty much end of the road IMO, at least as far as I can tell from the images provided.
But- regardless of my opinion, first and foremost OP's cardinal mistake was breaking them out of the holders rather than simply sending them in for reconsideration. That way at most he'd have been out some reconsideration/grading fees, the grades would have either stayed the same or gone up and none of this silly drama would have been necessary.
Second mistake... thinking that a TPG has any responsibility for something after it has been removed from their holder. You can threaten litigation all you want but in the end all you'll have is less money to show for it. A TPG has no control over what happens to something removed from their sealed holder, period. That would be like me selling you a wrapped loaf of bread and then calling me responsible for it being stale after you opened it. If I had to take an educated guess, I'm thinking the "mark" was either already there or happened when OP broke it out of the holder.
Finally-As to a chargeback, all that the TPG has to prove is that they rendered the services paid for, which were to grade the coins in question... and they did precisely that...so they'll win there also. " >>
And there as here, I agree with you, that's pretty much it.
<< <i>Bulk grading should be stopped, half of them are not even looked at and come back ACES, which they are not. >>
As crazy as the other comments you made were, this one deserves special attention for foolish!
<< <i>
<< <i>Last time I had a coin cracked out was in the summer of 2013 on a 1904 Saint in PCGS/CAC MS-66 from Legend Numismatics and wondercoin resubmitted it raw and it upgraded to PCGS MS-66+
You have to really pick and choose very carefully this crack out game.
I prefer the crossover game. At least, your risk is minimized, >>
Read the first line of this post closely, it raises even more concerns in my mind....... >>
Disturbing indeed... There were no 1904 Saints.
<< Last time I had a coin cracked out was in the summer of 2013 on a 1904 Saint in PCGS/CAC MS-66 from Legend Numismatics and wondercoin resubmitted it raw and it upgraded to PCGS MS-66+
You have to really pick and choose very carefully this crack out game.
I prefer the crossover game. At least, your risk is minimized, >>
Read the first line of this post closely, it raises even more concerns in my mind.......
***********
Banker bob.... I read this line very closely as you suggested and Yes, it does raise very serious conerns!! Can you imagine Wondercoin cracking out a 1904 Saint! What idiot would even touch a 1904 saint? !!!!!! LOL
More importantly, the owner of the coin (not a Saint obviously) has no idea how I got his fabulous "Saint" upgraded. He simply sent it out to me in the holder and left the rest to me. And, his coin was deserving of the upgrade... He failed to mention that (according to what he told me) he paid a very sizeable premium to what a "typical" MS66 was worth at the time to buy this premium coin from Legend. In conclusion, can one even imagine the chances that an esteemed collector from our boards (with an eagle eye for great coins) buying a premium quality example of a coin from Legend at a premium asking price and sending it to Wondercoin to try to get a + on the piece And the coin actually getting a + on it. What are the chances of that happening.
Wondercoin.
Wondercoin
$27,500 in MS66+
Back to the basics... Pay a little more for premium quality and good things are likely to happen!!
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin