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What is the fineness of the plug in the 1792 silver center cent?

CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,729 ✭✭✭✭✭
Does anybody know? Has anybody ever shot an x-ray or whatever at the plug?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.

Comments

  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,533 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's drill one to find out. image

    Interesting question...
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,416 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What was the fineness of Martha Washington's silverware?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>What was the fineness of Martha Washington's silverware? >>



    Gratuitous, but I'm glad he's paying attention. He knows the metal was melted to be recast. There goes your DNA evidence.
    Archimedes invented specific gravity. Is he suggesting his method may be a path of discovery, or just messing with us? Or both. And more.

    It is not beyond belief that MrEureka is on the track of something of some esoteric anomaly beyond imagination. But it could be a guinea of Mary I modified by proponents of the younger Elizabeth into a "potty dollar". And with an "EB" counterpunch on the Orb rather than the crown. Note of authentication from Thomas Cromwell. Surfaced after The Restoration. Spurious claims that its image is on the Shroud of Prince Albert.

    Buy a Silver-Center with lab-verified Sally Hemings DNA. When it comes out of the MRI things will be clearer.

    I'm predicting .925, but this is speculation. No actual paperwork (located (as of yet)) . . . .

    image
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    it's a good question, did they use any-old silver wire or cut a bit from a piece they had around, for these prototypes?

    My first guess would be .8925 fine. What is the fineness of other pattern coins in silver attributable to the creator(s) of these silver center cents?

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Coinage Act of 1792 was for official fineness as quoted. There is no reason to believe that patterns would have the same treatment. They pre-date this standard. They were all experimental. Micro-variances were irrelevant to demonstrating the concept.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • winkywinky Posts: 1,671
    PURE !image
  • sparky64sparky64 Posts: 7,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mi-T-Fine.

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress

  • LoveMyLibertyLoveMyLiberty Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭
    As described for the Morris Specimen:

    Properties of the Silver Center Cents
    Voigt's plan toward a smaller one cent coin was ingenious, combining a silver plug valued at 3/4 cent with a copper planchet valued at 1/4 cent. The 1792 Mint Act specified that the one cent coin should have a weight of 264 grains of pure copper. A quarter cent of copper would weigh 66 grains.
    The same Act specified that a silver dollar was to contain 416 grains of standard silver (89.24% silver, 10.76% copper), or 371.25 grains of pure silver, yielding 3.71 grains of pure silver per one cent. It is likely that the plug consisted of pure silver, having a weight of 2.78 grains.
    The combination of copper and silver gives a theoretical weight of 68.78 grains. The actual recorded weights of four high-grade pieces are 67.5 grains, 69.9 grains, 70.5 grains, and 72.8 grains, for an average of 70.2 grains.

    The Copper Planchet
    We have known diameters for six different Silver Center cents: 22.4 mm, 22.4 mm, 22.5 mm, 22.5 mm, 22.6 mm, and 22.9 mm, with an average of 22.55 mm. We will use 22.4 mm as the theoretical diameter. By using the familiar formula using pi, the surface area of the planchet is 394.08 square millimeters.
    Pure copper has a density of 8.94 gm/cc, equal to 0.138 grains per cubic millimeter. The theoretical weight of 66 grains, divided by the density, results in a theoretical volume of 478.26 cubic millimeters. Volume divided by surface area gives a theoretical thickness of 1.21 mm.
    The copper planchet was approximately 22.4 mm diameter and 1.2 mm thick.

    The Silver Plug
    The volume, dimensions, and composition of the silver plug present a few problems. We have already determined that a plug of pure silver valued at 3/4 cent will weight 2.78 grains. Silver has a density of 10.49 gm/cc, equal to 0.1619 grains per cubic millimeter. Weight divided by density gives a theoretical volume of 17.17 cubic millimeters for the silver plug.
    All known Silver Center cents retain a plug with a larger diameter on the obverse than on the reverse. That observation suggests a conical plug, rather than a cylindrical plug. We also know that the thickness of the copper planchet is 1.2 mm. Once the coin was struck, the plug will have the same thickness. The volume of 17.17 cubic millimeters divided by the 1.2-mm thickness yields a surface area of 14.31 square millimeters. Using the formula for the area of a circle, the theoretical radius is 2.13 mm, giving a diameter of 4.26 mm.
    The theoretical diameter of the plug is much greater than found on known specimens. The conclusion is that the Silver Center cents were made with a smaller amount of silver for illustrative purposes only. Congressional approval was uncertain, so there was no reason to use the full amount of silver valued at 3/4 cent when a lesser amount would suffice. It is unlikely that anyone in Congress would have checked that closely. There is apparently no standard dimension for the silver plug in these coins, so variance between surviving specimens is likely.


    It was to be 1/4 of the cent's value would be pure copper & 3/4 of the cent's value would be pure silver.

    Don't know if anyone ever tested it since 1792, but I do know I didn't.
    My Type Set

    R.I.P. Bear image
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,533 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As described for the Morris Specimen:

    Properties of the Silver Center Cents
    Voigt's plan toward a smaller one cent coin was ingenious, combining a silver plug valued at 3/4 cent with a copper planchet valued at 1/4 cent. The 1792 Mint Act specified that the one cent coin should have a weight of 264 grains of pure copper. A quarter cent of copper would weigh 66 grains.
    The same Act specified that a silver dollar was to contain 416 grains of standard silver (89.24% silver, 10.76% copper), or 371.25 grains of pure silver, yielding 3.71 grains of pure silver per one cent. It is likely that the plug consisted of pure silver, having a weight of 2.78 grains.
    The combination of copper and silver gives a theoretical weight of 68.78 grains. The actual recorded weights of four high-grade pieces are 67.5 grains, 69.9 grains, 70.5 grains, and 72.8 grains, for an average of 70.2 grains.

    The Copper Planchet
    We have known diameters for six different Silver Center cents: 22.4 mm, 22.4 mm, 22.5 mm, 22.5 mm, 22.6 mm, and 22.9 mm, with an average of 22.55 mm. We will use 22.4 mm as the theoretical diameter. By using the familiar formula using pi, the surface area of the planchet is 394.08 square millimeters.
    Pure copper has a density of 8.94 gm/cc, equal to 0.138 grains per cubic millimeter. The theoretical weight of 66 grains, divided by the density, results in a theoretical volume of 478.26 cubic millimeters. Volume divided by surface area gives a theoretical thickness of 1.21 mm.
    The copper planchet was approximately 22.4 mm diameter and 1.2 mm thick.

    The Silver Plug
    The volume, dimensions, and composition of the silver plug present a few problems. We have already determined that a plug of pure silver valued at 3/4 cent will weight 2.78 grains. Silver has a density of 10.49 gm/cc, equal to 0.1619 grains per cubic millimeter. Weight divided by density gives a theoretical volume of 17.17 cubic millimeters for the silver plug.
    All known Silver Center cents retain a plug with a larger diameter on the obverse than on the reverse. That observation suggests a conical plug, rather than a cylindrical plug. We also know that the thickness of the copper planchet is 1.2 mm. Once the coin was struck, the plug will have the same thickness. The volume of 17.17 cubic millimeters divided by the 1.2-mm thickness yields a surface area of 14.31 square millimeters. Using the formula for the area of a circle, the theoretical radius is 2.13 mm, giving a diameter of 4.26 mm.
    The theoretical diameter of the plug is much greater than found on known specimens. The conclusion is that the Silver Center cents were made with a smaller amount of silver for illustrative purposes only. Congressional approval was uncertain, so there was no reason to use the full amount of silver valued at 3/4 cent when a lesser amount would suffice. It is unlikely that anyone in Congress would have checked that closely. There is apparently no standard dimension for the silver plug in these coins, so variance between surviving specimens is likely.


    It was to be 1/4 of the cent's value would be pure copper & 3/4 of the cent's value would be pure silver.

    Don't know if anyone ever tested it since 1792, but I do know I didn't. >>

    Wow! That is how numismatics is done. The description written up for the Silver Plug is awesome! image

    Now, about that silver purity question.... image
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,215 ✭✭✭✭✭
    About a million bucks for a 10th of a gram?
    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,729 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As described for the Morris Specimen:

    Properties of the Silver Center Cents
    Voigt's plan toward a smaller one cent coin was ingenious, combining a silver plug valued at 3/4 cent with a copper planchet valued at 1/4 cent. The 1792 Mint Act specified that the one cent coin should have a weight of 264 grains of pure copper. A quarter cent of copper would weigh 66 grains.
    The same Act specified that a silver dollar was to contain 416 grains of standard silver (89.24% silver, 10.76% copper), or 371.25 grains of pure silver, yielding 3.71 grains of pure silver per one cent. It is likely that the plug consisted of pure silver, having a weight of 2.78 grains.
    The combination of copper and silver gives a theoretical weight of 68.78 grains. The actual recorded weights of four high-grade pieces are 67.5 grains, 69.9 grains, 70.5 grains, and 72.8 grains, for an average of 70.2 grains.

    The Copper Planchet
    We have known diameters for six different Silver Center cents: 22.4 mm, 22.4 mm, 22.5 mm, 22.5 mm, 22.6 mm, and 22.9 mm, with an average of 22.55 mm. We will use 22.4 mm as the theoretical diameter. By using the familiar formula using pi, the surface area of the planchet is 394.08 square millimeters.
    Pure copper has a density of 8.94 gm/cc, equal to 0.138 grains per cubic millimeter. The theoretical weight of 66 grains, divided by the density, results in a theoretical volume of 478.26 cubic millimeters. Volume divided by surface area gives a theoretical thickness of 1.21 mm.
    The copper planchet was approximately 22.4 mm diameter and 1.2 mm thick.

    The Silver Plug
    The volume, dimensions, and composition of the silver plug present a few problems. We have already determined that a plug of pure silver valued at 3/4 cent will weight 2.78 grains. Silver has a density of 10.49 gm/cc, equal to 0.1619 grains per cubic millimeter. Weight divided by density gives a theoretical volume of 17.17 cubic millimeters for the silver plug.
    All known Silver Center cents retain a plug with a larger diameter on the obverse than on the reverse. That observation suggests a conical plug, rather than a cylindrical plug. We also know that the thickness of the copper planchet is 1.2 mm. Once the coin was struck, the plug will have the same thickness. The volume of 17.17 cubic millimeters divided by the 1.2-mm thickness yields a surface area of 14.31 square millimeters. Using the formula for the area of a circle, the theoretical radius is 2.13 mm, giving a diameter of 4.26 mm.
    The theoretical diameter of the plug is much greater than found on known specimens. The conclusion is that the Silver Center cents were made with a smaller amount of silver for illustrative purposes only. Congressional approval was uncertain, so there was no reason to use the full amount of silver valued at 3/4 cent when a lesser amount would suffice. It is unlikely that anyone in Congress would have checked that closely. There is apparently no standard dimension for the silver plug in these coins, so variance between surviving specimens is likely.


    It was to be 1/4 of the cent's value would be pure copper & 3/4 of the cent's value would be pure silver.

    Don't know if anyone ever tested it since 1792, but I do know I didn't. >>



    Thanks for the reference!
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,599 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There might be a weight for the right answer.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Excellent information LoveMyLiberty....and good humor ColonelJessup.... Cheers, RickO
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  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Britannia "standard" silver was .958 fine....

    XRF might reveal actual fineness.
    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,729 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Where's the thread on the piece with the plug missing? Did that give a weight of just the copper?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Britannia "standard" silver was .958 fine....

    XRF might reveal actual fineness. >>



    Please linkify the Wiki on .958 silver. Fascinating . . . image

    Now we'll need records of when Martha's Custis family silver was made. Dig on.....
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell

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