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Are MS61 and MS62 "plastic only" grades? ...
291fifth
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... because without the plastic they would be called AU.
All glory is fleeting.
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<< <i>... because without the plastic they would be called AU. >>
No of course not. While there is a segment populations that are technically AUs, there is many many ways to get into that range. Commercial UNC have been around for decades and decades
The classic luster bomb baggy coins (which start as 66-67 and get dropped down for being chewed up)
The impaired luster be it dip or tone with a few impairments.
Market graded coins that are too nice for AU and slide up but then netted down from higher grades for rub
Straight net graded classics that look much better until you see the (oh, there it is spot)
and everything in between
Every grade is a net grade with no static route to get to any single point
MS-60 - Strictly Unc. with no but a fair number of marks and spots that have reached the point where the coin is moderately unattractive.
MS-61 - Fewer marks and spots, some eye appeal, no rub.
MS-62 - Enough eye appeal for you considered giving it an MS-63, but not quite. This is especially useful for scarce to rare coins where there a big jump in price from MS-60 to 63.
There quite a few MS-62 graded coins that are sliders, but market grading puts them in the Mint State column. I value really nice AU-58 coins at higher prices than ugly MS-60 and 61 coins. Why is a tiny rub a bigger sin than an ugly, intrusive bag mark or a coin with a host of bag marks and spots? Search me, but purists have trouble with the concept.
Many years ago a well known coin firm used the term "BU, light rubbing" before there was any sort of certification. In their case the abused that grade terribly, but there is niche for such a description if it applied consistently and conservatively.
For coins prior to about 1853 I'd say that MS61 and MS62 grades tend to be AUish, especially bust coinage. For coins like Morgans, Peace dollars, Barbers, and most 20th century coinage, a MS61/62 is strictly full luster, no rub uncs. There is no leeway on Morgans for example as there are just too many of them out there. There is plenty of leeway on bust dollars and halves.
<< <i>
<< <i>... because without the plastic they would be called AU. >>
No of course not. While there is a segment populations that are technically AUs, there is many many ways to get into that range. Commercial UNC have been around for decades and decades
The classic luster bomb baggy coins (which start as 66-67 and get dropped down for being chewed up)
The impaired luster be it dip or tone with a few impairments.
Market graded coins that are too nice for AU and slide up but then netted down from higher grades for rub
Straight net graded classics that look much better until you see the (oh, there it is spot)
and everything in between
Every grade is a net grade with no static route to get to any single point >>
"Commercial Unc." is a grade that exists only when dealers are selling. When a collector is trying to sell it is AU.
It's difficult to equate grading on the more primitive coins compared to a US mint made coin.
<< <i>Why is a tiny rub a bigger sin than an ugly, intrusive bag mark or a coin with a host of bag marks and spots? Search me, but purists have trouble with the concept. . >>
It shouldn't be. It's one of the dumbest concepts in numismatics that a nice AU coin is devalued due to "rub" vs. a crappy MS piece. It's idiotic in fact. The problem then lies in our grading scale. To bump an AU coin up to MS due to being nicer isn't being honest since the coin isn't MS. This is where the grading scale we use breaks down.
jom
This is just one example, but I have a ms62 Fugio in an OGH holder, as many know, these came from a bank of New York hoard and they were all uncirculated.
This (with the exception of 70).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>... because without the plastic they would be called AU. >>
No of course not. While there is a segment populations that are technically AUs, there is many many ways to get into that range. Commercial UNC have been around for decades and decades
The classic luster bomb baggy coins (which start as 66-67 and get dropped down for being chewed up)
The impaired luster be it dip or tone with a few impairments.
Market graded coins that are too nice for AU and slide up but then netted down from higher grades for rub
Straight net graded classics that look much better until you see the (oh, there it is spot)
and everything in between
Every grade is a net grade with no static route to get to any single point >>
"Commercial Unc." is a grade that exists only when dealers are selling. When a collector is trying to sell it is AU. >>
Fair enough but that is a market dynamic and not a technical definition.
Largers Trueviews here
My YouTube Channel
I would've guessed at least 63 or 64 on that piece.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>OK maybe this is a good place to drop this. I recently sent in this walker and it came back MS-62. I thought it was at least a 65 so I'm thinking the graders saw some rub. I'm just a novice so I'm not questioning what the graders determined but clearly the coin is clean with plenty of luster and if there is rub it should have been a 58. I thought an MS coin is supposed to be MS. I'm mostly trying to understand this coin and the assigned grade. Looking at the trueview I do seem to see something up the middle of the eagle on the reverse that may be rub. What say you?
Largers Trueviews here >>
I see "gray areas" (impaired luster) on Ms. Liberty's breat and hip and probably on her hand. These are either a slight rub, or they could be spots were the die did not fill completely when the coin was struck. Since this is a Philadelphia Mint coin, I tend to think that there is a slight rub there. This gets back to to my point about which is worse, bag marks and spots or a tiny rub. On a coin like this, which is fairly common, the market can be harsh and say AU grade an money, although I'd consider this coin to be a great bargain at AU money. On a rare coin, I'll take the slight rub a over marked up, spots or both technical grade Mint State piece, and actually pay more, sometimes way more, for it if it is attractive.
Phils photos are awesome but not for grading...
When I started collecting there were 4 levels of BU. BU, ChBu, GemBu and SupurbGemBu.
Then there were 11.......then there were 22 (pluses were added)......then 2 colors of stickers were added!!!!!
GAWD how many levels of BU can we come up with. Anybody that thinks they can tell the difference between all of these listed above........are playing with themselves!
<< <i>They are not AU, but they certainly splitting hairs.
When I started collecting there were 4 levels of BU. BU, ChBu, GemBu and SupurbGemBu.
Then there were 11.......then there were 22 (pluses were added)......then 2 colors of stickers were added!!!!!
GAWD how many levels of BU can we come up with. Anybody that thinks they can tell the difference between all of these listed above........are playing with themselves!
As long as there is money to be made the list of grades will continue to expand. It is about money, not grading.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I don't mind to see AU61, AU62 or even AU64 but that's a different story.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why is a tiny rub a bigger sin than an ugly, intrusive bag mark or a coin with a host of bag marks and spots? Search me, but purists have trouble with the concept. . >>
It shouldn't be. It's one of the dumbest concepts in numismatics that a nice AU coin is devalued due to "rub" vs. a crappy MS piece. It's idiotic in fact. The problem then lies in our grading scale. To bump an AU coin up to MS due to being nicer isn't being honest since the coin isn't MS. This is where the grading scale we use breaks down.
jom >>
This problem is solved if we would just drop the adjectives and simply give each coin a number. There are a lot of ways a coin can be "worth" 8 or 25 or 55 or 62 or 69 and yes, even "MS75" money.
It's the words "uncirculated" and "mint state" that cause all the trouble
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>OK maybe this is a good place to drop this. I recently sent in this walker and it came back MS-62. I thought it was at least a 65 so I'm thinking the graders saw some rub. I'm just a novice so I'm not questioning what the graders determined but clearly the coin is clean with plenty of luster and if there is rub it should have been a 58. I thought an MS coin is supposed to be MS. I'm mostly trying to understand this coin and the assigned grade. Looking at the trueview I do seem to see something up the middle of the eagle on the reverse that may be rub. What say you?
Largers Trueviews here >>
I see "gray areas" (impaired luster) on Ms. Liberty's breat and hip and probably on her hand. These are either a slight rub, or they could be spots were the die did not fill completely when the coin was struck. Since this is a Philadelphia Mint coin, I tend to think that there is a slight rub there. This gets back to to my point about which is worse, bag marks and spots or a tiny rub. On a coin like this, which is fairly common, the market can be harsh and say AU grade an money, although I'd consider this coin to be a great bargain at AU money. On a rare coin, I'll take the slight rub a over marked up, spots or both technical grade Mint State piece, and actually pay more, sometimes way more, for it if it is attractive. >>
There's the cut on the reverse motto and extending into the eagle's right wing. Easy to miss, but there in the truview, likely very visible when viewing the coin in hand and rotating light off it, presto, MS-62 netted.
<< <i>
<< <i>They are not AU, but they certainly splitting hairs.
When I started collecting there were 4 levels of BU. BU, ChBu, GemBu and SupurbGemBu.
Then there were 11.......then there were 22 (pluses were added)......then 2 colors of stickers were added!!!!!
GAWD how many levels of BU can we come up with. Anybody that thinks they can tell the difference between all of these listed above........are playing with themselves!
As long as there is money to be made the list of grades will continue to expand. It is about money, not grading. >>
Amen!
<< <i>
There's the cut on the reverse motto and extending into the eagle's right wing. Easy to miss, but there in the truview, likely very visible when viewing the coin in hand and rotating light off it, presto, MS-62 netted. >>
I see that now and it is pretty significant. I never noticed it before. Also I looked closely at the areas Bill Jones mentioned and I do see some light hair-lining and luster breaks. Clearly some rub. It's interesting and I'm glad I submitted the coin as a learning experience. I know more of what to look for with this series now. I've got a couple of other raw Walkers that look MS to me (I think I bought them from the same source at the same time). I'm going to look at them more closely tomorrow and see if I can see them in a new light. I appreciate the comments.
There is no rub, no hairlines, very few hits and they're quite trivial. Luster is complete and just booming. Very flashy.
I suppose I have to brush up on my grading skills for MS bust halves.
Lance.
newer pix:
Everybody has an opinion which has been analyzed, categorized and, unfortunately, generalized.
How about this,
MS61 and MS62 grades are definitely NOT MS63.
Everybody KNOWS that if a coins has any luster breaks, then it is "generally" considered AU. However, I would disagree with poorly struck coins where "luster" has not had the opportunity to blossom. I only say this because unstruck planchets can hardly be considered "lustrous" since luster is the direct result of the strike.
But I digress.
MS61 and MS62 coins are or should be either baggy or simply undesireable examples.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
There's the cut on the reverse motto and extending into the eagle's right wing. Easy to miss, but there in the truview, likely very visible when viewing the coin in hand and rotating light off it, presto, MS-62 netted. >>
I see that now and it is pretty significant. I never noticed it before. Also I looked closely at the areas Bill Jones mentioned and I do see some light hair-lining and luster breaks. Clearly some rub. It's interesting and I'm glad I submitted the coin as a learning experience. I know more of what to look for with this series now. I've got a couple of other raw Walkers that look MS to me (I think I bought them from the same source at the same time). I'm going to look at them more closely tomorrow and see if I can see them in a new light. I appreciate the comments. >>
Sure thing. Much the same happened to me buying a raw '41-D a few years ago, just as a ch BU, not anything more but I totally missed a sliding scrape that went right down the eagle's "pants leg." It was definitely a weird mark that only appeared when rotating the coin at a particular angle!
I was around when there were just BU, Choice, and Gem too, but it seems to me like many participants in the hobby are willing to play along with a more sensitive scale than that and to get calibrated with one another, none of which seems to me like a bad thing. And it's always been clear that some coins within any given broad category are just plain better than others, which equates to higher prices, greater liquidity, or both.
And, GMan, I think originalisbest nails it with your Walker. The coin is too nice to be bagged outright as a "problem coin," but a picky eye is going to reject it as a gem coin at gem money because of a thing like that. Personally, I love coins like that -- tons of appeal that you can get into cheap.
<< <i>PCGS graded this 62. I had it regraded and it came back 62 again.
There is no rub, no hairlines, very few hits and they're quite trivial. Luster is complete and just booming. Very flashy.
I suppose I have to brush up on my grading skills for MS bust halves.
Lance.
newer pix:
I didn't know you had this coin now. I owned it and sold it with a green label PCGS holder years ago. Someone else tried it before you as I think you must have bought it recently? I feel qualified to comment since I owned the coin and looked at it many times at different angles light etc. My conclusion was PCGS is shy about the color to bump it up in grade. What a strike on that bad boy eh?
Edit to ask...... did you crack it when you sent it in?
Where's the justice?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>PCGS graded this 62. I had it regraded and it came back 62 again.
There is no rub, no hairlines, very few hits and they're quite trivial. Luster is complete and just booming. Very flashy.
I suppose I have to brush up on my grading skills for MS bust halves.
Lance. >>
I didn't know you had this coin now. I owned it and sold it with a green label PCGS holder years ago. Someone else tried it before you as I think you must have bought it recently? I feel qualified to comment since I owned the coin and looked at it many times at different angles light etc. My conclusion was PCGS is shy about the color to bump it up in grade. What a strike on that bad boy eh?
Edit to ask...... did you crack it when you sent it in? >>
I think that's a good guess. I see no other reason why the coin isn't at least a point or two higher.
It's a shame that this comes into play. If it's deemed gradable -- not questionable, then judge it on its merits. I've handled hundreds of MS bust halves. This is one of the prettiest...a knock out.
Still, it's another example of the different reasons for MS62. (And no, I didn't crack it. It was a regrade.)
Lance.
1's and 2's are in between
NGC had it graded as MS62
PCGS graded it MS60
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BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...