As much of the air has come out of the MS/PR 70 grade...

MGLICKER · January 20, 2015 12:01AM

.....what can be done to value add to modern coins? As the 70 premium diminishes on silver eagles for example, the reward for the dealer network is certainly tanking.

Time for a 70+ ?

CaptHenway · January 20, 2015 12:13AM

How about a Double Secret MS-75(tm)?????

MGLICKER · January 20, 2015 12:21AM

<< How about a Double Secret MS-75(tm)????? >>

.....and roll it out with the new $75 UHR!

AMRC · January 20, 2015 12:26AM

Natural evolution. Accept it. If you enjoy it, collect it, and do not give any thought to the rest of the industry. This area has been exploited to the max. If you could see the pallets of coins that come into NGC or PCGS with each release, with the sole intent of "slabbing the 70's," you would see how overfished this market has become.

illini420 · January 20, 2015 12:27AM

Don't we already have MS/PR 70s with stickers now (or at least coming soon)? And as if one sticker isn't enough to show how much more perfect your 70 is vs. the rest, there are different colors of stickers for different levels of perfect

ricko · January 20, 2015 12:28AM

The 70 grade is enhanced (proof coins) by CAM or DCAM.... after that, value goes up as environmental damage sets in..... some people like that

Cheers, RickO

MGLICKER · January 20, 2015 12:32AM

<< .... after that, value goes up as environmental damage sets in..... some people like that

Cheers, RickO >>

True!

COALPORTER · January 20, 2015 12:41AM

<< Don't we already have MS/PR 70s with stickers now (or at least coming soon)? And as if one sticker isn't enough to show how much more perfect your 70 is vs. the rest, there are different colors of stickers for different levels of perfect

>>

I know at least one coin (Morgan) that is MS69 with a CAC sticker. I don't know if CAC does moderns? The other stickers
have no traction in the market (except for eagle eye )

roadrunner · January 20, 2015 1:21AM

Superduper moderns will have to invent another grade higher to separate all the also ran MS70's. They just might come out with a MS71 or MS72. I don't know if the MS70 "stickered" coin is going to work.

Baley · January 20, 2015 1:33AM

the reward for the dealer network is certainly tanking

the idea that there's a population of entities putting endless modern mint output into plastic and skimming money off the hobby for themselves is vaguely disquieting to old school numismatists

if the profit margins from this activity are declining due to overcompetition for this "flipping" action, due to higher quality coins, due to market saturation, due to collectors wising up about the ever expanding supply of this stuff, then maybe that would be good for the hobby and hobbyists in general.

the idea that flippers are looking for new ways to "add value" to modern coins is overtly unsettling. they've got their fancy and custom labels, they've got their signatures on the tag, now they want the "grades" to go higher than 70?

MGLICKER · January 20, 2015 1:36AM

<< the idea that flippers are looking for new ways to "add value" to modern coins is overtly unsettling. they've got their fancy and custom labels, they've got their signatures on the tag, now they want the "grades" to go higher than 70? >>

Not my game. I do my best to stay away from the 70's and their never ending milk spots.

BStrauss3 · January 20, 2015 1:36AM

Let's add more grades...

71 more perfect than perfect
72 better than a 71 but not a 73
73 wow, it doesn't get more perfect than this
74 ok, I lied, it's better than a 73
75 is the new 70

MGLICKER · January 20, 2015 1:42AM

Perhaps we could have an AP80 grade.

About perfect!

291fifth · January 20, 2015 1:50AM

It's time for a 100 point grading scale for ultra-moderns. A 100 could only be scored if the coin was absolutely perfect when viewed with an electron microscope.

LindeDad · January 20, 2015 2:26AM

Hot air is still in easy supply

wondercoin · January 20, 2015 2:41AM

Moderns overall are doing just fine.

Your example of silver Eagle 70's is not a great one for this reason...

Here is the model on MS70 Silver Eagles today...

1. Buy coins from a Mint Distributor at a few dollars over melt say $20 as a round number per coin.

2. Pay the grading service $35-$40 for 70's. Yes, you read that right, the grading services now make 2x the value of the coin itself to simply grade it MS70.

3. Sell the coins on ebay or elsewhere at about $61-$62 net/coin to clear $1-$2/coin. If you can sell thousands of them (or even tens of thousands of them) the $1-$2/coin clear is a decent living for the one product.

The mint is selling world record amounts, the grading services are slabbing world record amounts and Darwinian law at its finest to the select modern dealers making thousands or tens of thousands of dollars selling products like this one and myriad others as well. Indeed, the modern market has quite possibly never been better for many!

As a footnote, I have (personally) generally avoided most silver eagle issues due to the spotting and will likely not buy a single 2015 coin myself for the same reason. But, I am doing just fine on most other modern "stuff".

As always, just my two cents. Wondercoin

HATTRICK · January 20, 2015 2:43AM

<< the reward for the dealer network is certainly tanking

the idea that there's a population of entities putting endless modern mint output into plastic and skimming money off the hobby for themselves is vaguely disquieting to old school numismatists

if the profit margins from this activity are declining due to overcompetition for this "flipping" action, due to higher quality coins, due to market saturation, due to collectors wising up about the ever expanding supply of this stuff, then maybe that would be good for the hobby and hobbyists in general.

the idea that flippers are looking for new ways to "add value" to modern coins is overtly unsettling. they've got their fancy and custom labels, they've got their signatures on the tag, now they want the "grades" to go higher than 70?

>>

flippers ? maybe 10% or less. more like the big dealers 90% or more. The flippers are like a school of minnows in a tank full of sharks.

CaptHenway · January 20, 2015 3:06AM

<< It's time for a 100 point grading scale for ultra-moderns. A 100 could only be scored if the coin was absolutely perfect when view with an electron microscope.

>>

If you really want to know why we do not have a 1-100 grading system, read the next installment of a two-part article that I started in Coin Week yesterday.

CaptHenway · January 20, 2015 3:07AM

<< 

<< How about a Double Secret MS-75(tm)????? >>

.....and roll it out with the new $75 UHR! >>

Excellent!

planetsteve · January 20, 2015 3:51AM

<< .....what can be done to value add to modern coins? As the 70 premium diminishes on silver eagles for example, the reward for the dealer network is certainly tanking.

Time for a 70+ ? >>

Wasn't the Sheldon scale the wrong tool for the job anyway? The bullion and commemorative releases are all either 69 or 70, with all the nuance and thrill of an on-off switch.

Steve · January 20, 2015 4:54AM

<< The 70 grade is enhanced (proof coins) by CAM or DCAM.... after that, value goes up as environmental damage sets in..... some people like that

Cheers, RickO >>

I didn't think the grading services are still using the "CAM" designation on any coins minted after 1990. Am I wrong? Steve

Cocoinut · January 20, 2015 5:33AM

<< .what can be done to value add to modern coins? >>

That's easy. The Mint could lower their quality control so that MS coins grading higher than 67 (68 for proofs) are practically non-existent (think early 1970's). The TPG's would love it. People would be sending in coins hoping for 68 or better instead of just 70.

I have never purchased a coin already graded as 70; it's a sucker's game, due to the ever-expanding supply. I have, however, submitted a few coins that were graded 70.

Jim

derryb · January 20, 2015 5:37AM

premiums remain, lower overall prices are a result of lower gold and silver prices. Most of the modern "70" market is in gold and silver mint issues. Buyers are reluctant to fork out for a gold or silver 70 in a declining PM market. After all, most modern 70's are bought with flipping at a profit in mind. This was easily achieved when PMs were climbing. Look for more creative labels to attempt to give modern grading demand a boost.

SkyMan · January 20, 2015 6:34AM

<< Moderns overall are doing just fine.

Your example of silver Eagle 70's is not a great one for this reason...

Here is the model on MS70 Silver Eagles today...

1. Buy coins from a Mint Distributor at a few dollars over melt say $20 as a round number per coin.

2. Pay the grading service $35-$40 for 70's. Yes, you read that right, the grading services now make 2x the value of the coin itself to simply grade it MS70.

... >>

It sure sounds like the main winner for making a profit in this game are the major TPG's.

telephoto1 · January 20, 2015 7:48AM

<< Moderns overall are doing just fine.

Your example of silver Eagle 70's is not a great one for this reason...

Here is the model on MS70 Silver Eagles today...

1. Buy coins from a Mint Distributor at a few dollars over melt say $20 as a round number per coin.

2. Pay the grading service $35-$40 for 70's. Yes, you read that right, the grading services now make 2x the value of the coin itself to simply grade it MS70.

3. Sell the coins on ebay or elsewhere at about $61-$62 net/coin to clear $1-$2/coin. If you can sell thousands of them (or even tens of thousands of them) the $1-$2/coin clear is a decent living for the one product.

The mint is selling world record amounts, the grading services are slabbing world record amounts and Darwinian law at its finest to the select modern dealers making thousands or tens of thousands of dollars selling products like this one and myriad others as well. Indeed, the modern market has quite possibly never been better for many!

As a footnote, I have (personally) generally avoided most silver eagle issues due to the spotting and will likely not buy a single 2015 coin myself for the same reason. But, I am doing just fine on most other modern "stuff".

As always, just my two cents. Wondercoin >>

Why would I want to go through the hassle of tying up my capital and inventory to make $1 per coin if I'm lucky? The TPG's making way more than I am on the things with no investment outside of 5 seconds' worth of a grader's time and a plastic holder. Unless you have a large market presence and/or are feeding the TV sellers you aren't going to sell thousands, much less tens of thousands of 70 graded pieces. AMRC had it right when he said that these waters are "overfished"... and constantly changing the grading system to do nothing more than enrich volume sellers and tpgs isn't the answer...it's the problem.

MGLICKER · January 20, 2015 8:41AM

<< 2. Pay the grading service $35-$40 for 70's >>

So the bulk submission rate on a silver eagle is now $35? Must be a bit more to the story..........

wondercoin · January 20, 2015 8:46AM

MGlicker ... No it is not $35 .. it is $40/coin.

Want to submit 1,000 coins - $40
Want to submit 5,000 coins - $40
Want to submit 10,000 coins - $40

That is a VERY SHORT STORY!!

Wondercoin

wondercoin · January 20, 2015 8:52AM

Telephoto1 - Again, I do not "mess" with MS70 Silver Eagles personally.

But, if I did, here is why $1 or $2/coin might make sense to me. First, you can often wholesale them off 100 at a time. Making $150 for each package shipped - not toobad.

Second, many dealers play for market share ... happy to make $1 on a 2015 coin to get a new customer. Maybe the new customer will buy a 1995-W PR70DCAM Silver Eagle next

That said, I totally follow the argument that it is often not wise to spend $60 to make $1. Of course, the "$1" is where you would be competitive and beat most of the advertised prices. That said, retail customers will often pay $5 extra from a dealer they like as well.

Wondercoin

MGLICKER · January 20, 2015 8:58AM

<< That is a VERY SHORT STORY!! >>

Story gets even shorter.

Must have been looking for a 75 grade.

wondercoin · January 20, 2015 9:04AM

Mglicker ... My comment was for 2015 First Strike coins - the coins available right now.

No doubt prior year coins will sell for more or less.

Wondercoin

MGLICKER · January 20, 2015 9:06AM

<< Mglicker ... My comment was for 2015 First Strike coins - the coins available right now. >>

I get it Mitch, but was it not also $40 last year?

Just askin.

dcarr · January 20, 2015 9:13AM

<< .....what can be done to value add to modern coins? >>

Put them back in their original Mint packaging ?

Cameonut · January 20, 2015 9:13AM

I am not a big fan of the 69 vs 70 market premium. For years I have posted that 70's are priced too high with respect to 69's.

I've also not been a fan of the First Strikes labeling which has no correlation at all to whether a coin was actually struck first. But that is a different battle on the same market premium topic.

So do we really need another marketing ploy to add value to these "underappreciated" common coins? Maybe some type of new "bean" or "sticker" will be the ticket!

coinkat · January 20, 2015 9:18AM

Why are collectors just unable to enjoy Modern coins that grade lower and are less expensive to begin with?

derryb · January 20, 2015 9:20AM

High demand for 70s, particularly on ebay, has led many flippers to believe there is a strong collector base. While some do collect 70s, most of the sales are between flippers hoping for the next profit. The particular coin then peaks and the last flipper holding has to eat a loss. Loss of precious metal bull market lowered the peak point and demand for 70s. It will return, but not today or tomorrow.

wondercoin · January 20, 2015 4:02PM

"I get it Mitch, but was it not also $40 last year?

Just askin."

I believe it was $25 last year for the MS70FS Silver Eagles.

But, also the coin you linked was a non-FS coin and I think those were a little cheaper as well.

So, he lost a little less (at that $41 sales price).

Wondercoin

As much of the air has come out of the MS/PR 70 grade...

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