1797/1 Half cent question

MusicAL · January 10, 2015 6:23AM

Hello.

This is the second time I have posted this...so sorry if it turns out to be a repeat. I haven't been on site for a while so maybe I messed up somehow. I send a warm "hello" to past friends and new participants as well.

I have a 1797 1/2 cent "certified" by SEGS ( if THAT means anything) with this description on the slab; "C-1 VG-8 Massive Die Failure Rev Planchet Flaw. Well, when you see the photos you will be able to see (hopefully) how it got this description. I was tootling around today in Breen's "Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins" and found these offerings:

p.165: # 151 "1797 1 above 1 in date rolled stock....Shattered die coins are thought to be among the [12,167] of 1799." However, there ARE no half cents of 1799, are there? Anyway, I am going to a small "local" show in Massachusetts tomorrow and was going to try to upgrade this piece. My question is that I can't recall seeing "shattered die" 1797/1 half cents offered (at least with that description. How common or scarce are these and am I better off to offer it to a half cent enthusiast rather than trading her in or offering it on E-Bay? Are their collectors who specialize in this kind of thing? The reverse is particularly interesting on my piece, though the obverse is no slouch either. Can anyone figure out what the "dog bone" looking thing is that is sticking out from under Liberty's chin? Could it be part of the design on a Talbut, Allum & Lee Cent?

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

Alan in Massachusetts Musiccoins

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/538/kDsN7X.jpg

CaptHenway · January 10, 2015 7:58AM

Well, FWIW, I have never seen a coin from these dies in this late die state. Can't tell from the pictures if it is die state IX or X.

I suggest that you determine for certain whether is is struck on a cut-down Talbot, Allum & Lee cent of not. Breen (P. 175) called the strikes from die state X on normal planchets very rare.

On P. 178 he shows a strike from die state IX on a cut-down TAL. Below that he calls all strikes on TAL planchet only R-2, but I do not know if that applies to the die state IX coins as well.

If I would you I would try to sell it through a specialist in early copper rather than at a coin show or on eBay. If it is the very rare die state X on a regular planchet you will not get what it is worth, IMHO.

TD

MusicAL · January 10, 2015 8:12AM

That's great, TD. I doubt that there will be a copper specialist in Auburn tomorrow...but I'll bring the coin with me just in case. I have Breen, and Cohen's "Little Half Sisters" book but I took figuring it out as far as I could. I'll pull Breen out again and see if I can make a determination on IX or X. Not sure I can find that information...but it will begreat fun to try.

Thanks so much!!!

Alan in Massachusetts

shorecoll · January 10, 2015 8:17AM

There are several copper specialists in MA so don't automatically accept a lowball offer. You might find a specialist at the show. Ask the show manager if you can figure out who that is.

indeetlib · January 10, 2015 8:42AM

Not particularly scarce in this die state nor worth a premium because of it, but still a neat coin. This was most likely struck on a TAL cent although you may not be able to see any undertype because of the grade. Also, that line under the chin is a die crack.

LoveMyLiberty · January 10, 2015 8:52AM

<< <i>That's great, TD. I doubt that there will be a copper specialist in Auburn tomorrow...but I'll bring the coin with me just in case. I have Breen, and Cohen's "Little Half Sisters" book but I took figuring it out as far as I could. I'll pull Breen out again and see if I can make a determination on IX or X. Not sure I can find that information...but it will begreat fun to try.

Thanks so much!!!

Alan in Massachusetts >>

In State V breaks develop in the obv R field, from border to
nose and later branch down towards the neck. That's the
"dog bone"

My guess is this reached state IX as I can't see a break from
the rim above D to the wreath for state X

Breen states 1-a was struck on rolled copper, unless you can
see some evidence of Talbot , Allum & Lee Tokens present.

Very interesting piece and discussion. Thanks for showing us.

MusicAL · January 12, 2015 7:55AM

Hello, everyone.

I very much appreciate all the terrific replies to my question about my 1797/1 half cent. Very informative and interesting. As it turns out, I did take the coin to the Auburn, MA show yesterday but I didn't locate an early copper specialist. I did show the piece to a few very friendly guys and they all found it interesting...especially the reverse. One gentleman recognized it as perhaps die state 9 or 10 but saw no signs of it being stamped on a Talbut....token. As far as upgrading, well, this might sound dumb, but I was so fascinated at the enlarged photos I posted here (especially the reverse) and the opinions of you great guys out there, I have decided to keep it and I looked for something else to add to the collection.

The Auburn show was small...but quite well attended when we arrived at about 10:00. By maybe 11:30, it had quieted down considerably. My young collector friend (grandson of my neighbor when my wife and I lived in RI...he's 18...in college and I started him out on collecting some 10 years ago) was successful in his quest of a decent type 3 gold dollar. It's quite sharp looking at MS-62 PCGS. I DID learn that a large percentage of the 1874 gold dollars were not well struck so as to show LIBERTY clearly (if at all) on the obverse. NO Liberty I learned was the rule with some...but few exceptions. Anyway, Matt is pleased with his coin, met a very pleasant dealer and has a great addition to his type set. I left empty handed...but that's OK. Guess I'm getting fussy in my old age. Maybe at the Marlboro, MA show this spring...I'll find something to add to my 18th-19th centuries type set. Would LOVE a 1795 dollar to replace the one I lost as "counterfeit" in a SEGS Slab, but I have a grandson now...3 1/2 years old...love him to death...and his 529 plan is calling....loudly.

Thanks, guys. I'm a bit more educated about half cents because of your contributions and I appreciate every one!

Alan un MA MusicCoins

BillJones · January 12, 2015 8:02AM

Hi Al,

I know that the "horse is out of the barn," but if you are looking for a well struck Type III Gold Dollar, the 1880s are a much better decade to consider. The mintages were very low, and the dies did not have chance to get very worn. As a result many of the coins are super. The trick is to find in a lower Mint State grade which would not be too expensive. You can buy an MS-64 for less than $1,000, and the lower grade ones can sell for about the same as an 1874.

And yes you can't read the "LIBERTY" on a quite a few 1874 gold dollars.

MusicAL · January 12, 2015 8:13AM

Hi, Bill.

Kind of you to reply to my "tangent" to the thread! My YC friend is happy. As far as my collection, I have a 1873 open 3, MS 61 and I have often thought of an upgrade at some point. My real passion is early type and my wildest dream is to upgrade my F 02 Chain Cent...PCGS...but I don't think THAT will ever happen. My problem is that I want to upgrade so many pieces...but I'm happy to have what I DO have I guess...but I miss my 1795 dollar bigtime. I have left the space in my album open in case I ever have the opportunity to fill the hole again.

Thanks for the information. Filed away for future reference...with THANKS!

Alan

1797/1 Half cent question

Comments

Leave a Comment