Collectible Coin Protection Act
DonWillis
Posts: 961 ✭✭✭
Collectible Coin Protection Act becomes a Law (12/22/2014 update)
Good work Barry!
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The Gold and Silver Political Action Committee is very proud to say that H.R. 2754 Collectible Coin Protection Act was PASSED BY THE SENATE ON
DECEMBER, 15, 2014 AND was SIGNED BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES on Dec 18th
The Collectible Coin Protection Act helps combat the counterfeiting of numismatic items and grading-service slabs. This bill will gives more teeth to the existing law and have a significant positive impact within the rare coin and precious metal community.
Stopping Chinese Counterfeit coins is the No. 1 legislative priority of the Gold & Silver PAC. It is crucial that we find a means of stemming the influx of very high quality counterfeits coins entering the US marketplace from China. Guided by Political Consultant Jimmy Hayes, it was decided that legislation would be the most effective remedy. This new law allows for both civil and criminal penalties against companies or individuals that import, distribute or resell Counterfeit coins. This bill will modify the Hobby Protection Act to give law enforcement agencies the additional enforcement and deterrent powers they need to stop the inflow of all counterfeit coins.
Sincerely,
Barry Stuppler
Chairman - Gold and Silver PAC
Good work Barry!
--------------
The Gold and Silver Political Action Committee is very proud to say that H.R. 2754 Collectible Coin Protection Act was PASSED BY THE SENATE ON
DECEMBER, 15, 2014 AND was SIGNED BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES on Dec 18th
The Collectible Coin Protection Act helps combat the counterfeiting of numismatic items and grading-service slabs. This bill will gives more teeth to the existing law and have a significant positive impact within the rare coin and precious metal community.
Stopping Chinese Counterfeit coins is the No. 1 legislative priority of the Gold & Silver PAC. It is crucial that we find a means of stemming the influx of very high quality counterfeits coins entering the US marketplace from China. Guided by Political Consultant Jimmy Hayes, it was decided that legislation would be the most effective remedy. This new law allows for both civil and criminal penalties against companies or individuals that import, distribute or resell Counterfeit coins. This bill will modify the Hobby Protection Act to give law enforcement agencies the additional enforcement and deterrent powers they need to stop the inflow of all counterfeit coins.
Sincerely,
Barry Stuppler
Chairman - Gold and Silver PAC
0
Comments
WASHINGTON – Fake antique gold and silver US coins – many purporting to be more than 200 years old — are flooding the US resale market from China, and Congress just passed a law to do something about it.
The legislation breezed through the Senate in the final days of the session, and was one of the last bills President Obama signed into law before jetting to Hawaii.
With the market for rare and antique coins booming – and the biggest coin markets in New York — forgers have mastered the art of creating nearly exact replicas of valuable collectors’ items, with enough precision to fool the experts.
Sometimes forgers manufacture the fakes out of real gold or silver. Other times they insert less precious materials like titanium inside the coin, but manage to duplicate the exact weight of precious metals.
“They’re very deceptive,” said former Rep. Jimmy Hayes (R-La.), a lobbyist who helped push through the bill. “I assure you there’s no way to tell if it’s good or not. You’ll never suspect.”
Hayes said a typical Chinese forger might spend $30 making a fake rare coin that can go for $1,200.
Hayes knows something about the value of real antique coins. He sold his own childhood coin collection for $1.2 million to finance a run for Congress in the 1990. He says now it would be worth about $60 million.
The new law makes it illegal to sell imitation coins unless they are clearly marked as a “copy.” It makes it a crime to aid the manufacturer, importer, or seller of forged items.
And if special collection certificates get faked as part of a scheme, the owner of the trademarks on the certificates are entitled to seek damages.
Individuals can file civil lawsuits against sellers of fake coins, buttons, and posters to try to recoup costs.
New York is the center of the trade in rare coins. Stores like Heritage Auctions and Stack’s Bowers on W. 57th St. hold major monthly trade shows where the items change hands.
The most expensive coin to sell at auction was a 1794 Flowing Hair silver dollar that went for $10 million at Stack’s in 2013.
The fraudsters are taking a toll on pawn shops. The average mom-and-pop dealer loses $3,500-$4,500 when the fall for fake coins, said Doug Davis, a longtime police officer who runs the Numismatic Crime Information Center.
A group called the Gold and Silver PAC spent some coin of its own to help get its priority bill across the finish line. The PAC made $72,000 in campaign contributions in 2013 and 2014, according to the Center for Responsive Politics web site.
Recipients from the last two election cycles included sponsor G.K. Butterfield (D-N.C.), who got $5,000, Sen. Ed Markey (D-Mass.), who got $10,000, Rep. Steve Scalise (R-La.), who got $7,000, and Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) got $5,000.
According to the PAC’s web site: “After the bill had been stalled in the Senate for over a year, Legislative Consultant Jimmy Hayes and Gold & Silver PAC Chairman Barry Stuppler met Barry’s Congressman, Henry Waxman (D-CA) to ask Rep. Waxman to help get this bill moving in the Senate.”
“With Waxman’s efforts combined with our friends in the Senate on the Commerce Committee did the trick. Two months later the bill was passed without any opposition.”
Cops are on the lookout for a man who has been passing fake coins in a forged coin spree across Colorado, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, and other states.
He pedaled a rare 1822 dime and what he said was an 1893 “Morgan” silver dollar to a Colorado coin shop in November, according to an alert circulated to law enforcement and shops around the country.
“We’ve probably got six or seven offenses related to him. He’s buying them from some Internet site I’m sure — They’re all Chinese fakes – counterfeits,” Davis, of the coin information center, told the Post.
NY Post Link
but the facts are
in the real world this law is useless as ever unless there is some sort of special task force that deals only in fake coins
the fake coin biz is making million a year so this law will not impact them much
and putting fake coin makers in prison will not help, arrest one and 40 will take their place
many nations are involved in the fake coin biz
in other words this law is words on paper till these issues are dealt with
Coins for Sale: Both Graded and Ungraded
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oqym2YtcS7ZAZ73D6
Doesn't seem like there is any teeth in the law. Whatever happened to counterfeiting punishable by death?
That's a bit harsh but one year is way too easy.
Hope it helps get the stuff off the internet. Still available on Aliexpress and Alibaba.
bob
LINK
<< <i>Unless some examples are made it will be ignored. Just who will actually enforce this law? >>
So true.
The USPS, Federal-state-and local govt's, and police have generally ignored numismatic crimes as white collar crime where buyers basically are well enough off to afford to lose the money (ie caveat emptor). This law won't change anything without enforcement. If these same people haven't shown any real interest in fighting coin fraud the past decade why should numismatic fakes draw any additional attention? There are plenty of unenforced laws on the books already. If you have the resources to take them on in civil court, good luck to you. It's one thing to take it to court. It's another thing to win the case and then get enough money back to cover your loss + attorney fees.
Maybe this law will lead to something. It might somewhat deter American counterfeiters or US sellers found to be in the distribution chain. Will this bill allow Ebay to be prosecuted as an involved party in the counterfeiting scheme?
<< <i>When is the first suing of eBay planned. >>
right after alibaba
He is part of the PAC for the industry (I believe)
This is good news, but as folks point out, some examples need to be made...and i personally think some big examples need to be made
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
TD
There were counterfeits this good coming into ANACS back in the 70's. Remember the 1799 dollars and the 1811 $5's? We beat them down, but never out, with education, publishing characteristics of the fakes and holding seminars at coin shows telling people what to look for.
One or more of the major TPG's need to pick up this torch and run with it. Start a website showing all known fakes. Yes it will be expensive and time consuming and never be complete, but the alternative is that stuff like this keeps poisoning the well.
Perhaps a joint site by PCGS and NGC and ANACS, with all contributing information and sharing the cost based on a common percentage of their respective gross revenues.
TD
As for Barry, he's quite involved in the hobby:
- Chairman: Gold and Silver PAC
- Founder and President: Mint State Gold
- Founder: PQ Approved
<< <i>Start a website showing all known fakes. Yes it will be expensive and time consuming and never be complete, but the alternative is that stuff like this keeps poisoning the well. >>
There's a Flickr site showcasing known fakes now. What additional benefit would this provide?
<< <i>
<< <i>When is the first suing of eBay planned. >>
right after alibaba >>
It's an American Law, eBay is a American Corp.
The Ali Baba's American branch is all that could be sued. Harder I think.
1. A "take no prisoners" lawsuit assault on the profiteers of the fake slabs,
2. Publish high quality photos of the fakes, but only give enough diagnostic points to distinguish the genuine slabs and coins from the fakes. Don't list all of them - just enough for the average numismatist to be able to tell and "save" the other diagnostics until the counterfeiters go to the next version,
3. Following #2 above, have examples of "real" and "fake" coins at major shows available for close examination for educational purposes
4. Or, have a "real or fake" contests at major events like to grading contests of old
5. Push out governmental officials to enforce this new law and the existing counterfeiting laws on the books.
==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades
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<< <i>
<< <i>Start a website showing all known fakes. Yes it will be expensive and time consuming and never be complete, but the alternative is that stuff like this keeps poisoning the well. >>
There's a Flickr site showcasing known fakes now. What additional benefit would this provide? >>
There is?
Perhaps a site linked to by the major TPG's will receive better exposure.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Start a website showing all known fakes. Yes it will be expensive and time consuming and never be complete, but the alternative is that stuff like this keeps poisoning the well. >>
There's a Flickr site showcasing known fakes now. What additional benefit would this provide? >>
There is? >>
Here are two:
- CoinForgeryEbay
- Fake Coins
<< <i>Perhaps a site linked to by the major TPG's will receive better exposure. >>
Perhaps.
<< <i>
<< <i>Start a website showing all known fakes. Yes it will be expensive and time consuming and never be complete, but the alternative is that stuff like this keeps poisoning the well. >>
There's a Flickr site showcasing known fakes now. What additional benefit would this provide? >>
Can you provide a link to that area on Flickr?
That would help, but... my latest editon of "A Charlton Standard Catalogue of Canadian Coins" now has: "Including a section on counterfeit Canadian coins from China" Pages 293-353 is dedicated to this with full pictures, and comparisons of real vs fake, it's quite nice.
It's sad, but I wonder how long until the US Redbook has a similar section, although it would be pretty close to as big as the rest of the book I fear.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Start a website showing all known fakes. Yes it will be expensive and time consuming and never be complete, but the alternative is that stuff like this keeps poisoning the well. >>
There's a Flickr site showcasing known fakes now. What additional benefit would this provide? >>
Can you provide a link to that area on Flickr? >>
All the slabs on CoinForgeryEbay are kind of sobering. It's a good thing this law targets counterfeit slabs in addition to coins.
Note sarcasm.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Start a website showing all known fakes. Yes it will be expensive and time consuming and never be complete, but the alternative is that stuff like this keeps poisoning the well. >>
There's a Flickr site showcasing known fakes now. What additional benefit would this provide? >>
There is? >>
Here are two:
- CoinForgeryEbay
- Fake Coins
<< <i>Perhaps a site linked to by the major TPG's will receive better exposure. >>
Perhaps. >>
The first one is good.
On that second one, what in the heck is the guy talking about on the 1794 dollars?
<< <i>I'm sure the only reason our leader signed it was because it was attached to some increase to one of his social programs. Or more money for muslim outreach. Or legal defense funds for the police protesters.
Note sarcasm. >>
Please allow me to introduce myself.........
I'm not big on PC, just anti-ugly, so shut your yap, newbie, and stick to coins. You know nothing about this topic and your hate-filled rhetorical drivel is less than worthless to our discussion. And Merry Christmas. . . .
Former ANA President Barry Stuppler and former U.S. Congressman Jimmy Hayes, who at one time built the finest set of first-year US Type, now ICTA's lobbyist, have been working their butts off for years on this and similar hobby/industry issues.
They have earned our thanks many times over. This legislation may only be another finger in the dike. The problem will likely only get worse. But there are people working to stem some of the tide
Useful website links.. Thanks . . .
till people understand they need heavy hitting laws to counter the fake coin biz then nothing will stop them
Coins for Sale: Both Graded and Ungraded
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oqym2YtcS7ZAZ73D6
let me rephrase that:
C
I
V
I
L
.
S
I
D
E
.
Someone importing or mailing counterfeit bullion can be sued by someone... ANYONE... in the marketplace. They get costs and damages.
Now, someone selling counterfeits in holders can be pursued in the civil courts.
I'm a bit busy... I'd have to read it again, but I wonder if non-holdered counterfeit coin sellers/importers could also be sued. This would be important because groups like the ANA and PNG could take action on members' behalf, if so.
Criminally:
defining coin doctoring is tough, but I am going to guess the word "intent" was not high on a list of words to include. But look at, say, a counterfeit law and intent appears
"Whoever, with intent to defraud, falsely makes, forges, counterfeits, or alters any obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined under this title..."
It's going to be tough to get action on the criminal side, but one word does not appear: "intent." In this case, I don't think it needs to appear because if you should have "copy" on the thing, then put it on there. You can't "intent" the word "copy" onto a coin.
Now, what might it do to the "similar but different" market should a certain court case posted about on here deems those rounds require "copy?" Do APMEX and others stop selling them entirely (who wants bullion with "copy"on it? is the bullion a copy or just the design? the confusion is not good) And where does one draw the line on "copy" vs. "different enough?" Well, Well, Well.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm sure the only reason our leader signed it was because it was attached to some increase to one of his social programs. Or more money for muslim outreach. Or legal defense funds for the police protesters.
Note sarcasm. >>
Please allow me to introduce myself.........
I'm not big on PC, just anti-ugly, so shut your yap, newbie, and stick to coins. You know nothing about this topic and your hate-filled rhetorical drivel is less than worthless to our discussion. And Merry Christmas. . . .
Former ANA President Barry Stuppler and former U.S. Congressman Jimmy Hayes, who at one time built the finest set of first-year US Type, now ICTA's lobbyist, have been working their butts off for years on this and similar hobby/industry issues.
They have earned our thanks many times over. This legislation may only be another finger in the dike. The problem will likely only get worse. But there are people working to stem some of the tide
Useful website links.. Thanks . . .
This still remains a grey area that is not addressed in the CCPA. I assume that the bill probably would not have passed if such a vague exemption was included as it could have resulted in the illegal manufacture and distribution of well made counterfeit U.S. coins, such as quarters, halves and dollars (among others).
bob
<< <i>old counterfeits are better than new counterfeits??? How is that? >>
Some TPGs slab them.
Speaking of counterfeiting, how/why did you copy my copyrighted image that I use with my posts? (1912 British Columbia token obverse)
One of the problems with controlling "fakes" is defining what they are. The Hobby protection act has major holes in this regard as the definitions that it uses are unenforce-ably broad. I haven't read this new act to have any idea of what is in this new act. However, consider the following problem with the hobby protection act:
A private mint makes a set of dies for souvenirs in 1975.
The dies are used to make medals for sale in souvenir shops to order for 30 years.
The proprietor gets too old to run the mint and sells it to another person.
That person continues making the medals for sale to order.
By the definitions of the hobby protection act, that second person is not producing "the original striking" and is in violation of the act. This renders the material and business of the mint worthless (no re-sale value) which is not at all reasonable and probably not constitutional. In fact the HPA could be interpreted to mean that the private mint could only fill 1 order for the medals since anything else is not the original striking. I do not think this was the intent of the act, but that is what it says.
--
Mike Locke California Gold
www.calgoldcoin.c.om
lockem@calgoldcoin.com
www.calgoldcoin.com
lockem@calgoldcoin.com
<< <i>Eclectic,
Speaking of counterfeiting, how/why did you copy my copyrighted image that I use with my posts? (1912 British Columbia token obverse) >>
Can't speak for Eclectic, but the forum software makes all avatars uploaded by anyone available for everyone to use. It's just part of how the software works when you click "View All" after "Select the author icon you wish to use:"
<< <i>Eclectic,
Speaking of counterfeiting, how/why did you copy my copyrighted image that I use with my posts? (1912 British Columbia token obverse)
--
Mike Locke California Gold
www.calgoldcoin.c.om
lockem@calgoldcoin.com >>
Mike,
First, the avatar I chose is not a coin I own or image I took...like many members on this board. I chose it at random. Second, if you can prove it is yours and is copyrighted I'll gladly change it. Third, since you have only posted 3 times in 7 years you need to calm down. Finally, you could have easily PM-ed me and politely told me what you stated in your post.
<< <i>I'm sure the only reason our leader signed it was because it was attached to some increase to one of his social programs. Or more money for muslim outreach. Or legal defense funds for the police protesters.
Note sarcasm. >>
Hate noted.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
hope it works.
Ok, I can see the flaws in the above, because the counterfeiters are getting better at making the exact coin and slab so what's the answer? Micro photography and a data list on who has what! The minute details of a strike of a coin follows a pattern, can it be documented and adhered to? Of course, there are many die pairings, could a library of information be comprised to secure what is real? Communication and a guarantee is the key, everyone gets the message, you don't buy unless it's been seen by a panel of experts. How else can it be done with the counterfeiting of slabs? Every rare coin auctioned needs to come immediately after a panel of expects who have just verified the coin.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
If these are still easily found, who is going to shut them down? I hope they passed money to enforce this. Makes me concerned real rare coin values will drop if this is allowed to continue.
Alibaba example
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>When is the first suing of eBay planned. >>
more then likely the paper work is done and who ever gets it in first is the question
<< <i>Glad the law was passed. At least it is a step in the right direction. After a bit of looking, I now see this problem is way worse than I thought. Look at all the PCGS slabs and old counterfeits on this site and there are dozens of other sites.
If these are still easily found, who is going to shut them down? I hope they passed money to enforce this. Makes me concerned real rare coin values will drop if this is allowed to continue.
Alibaba example >>
There are a lot of slabbed Saints there. Are the slabs legal in China? It seems like the coins are legal to manufacture in China but not import into the US.
Aliexpress
bob
The chartered body of the hobby needs to step up not players.
Just my opinion.
<< <i>Maybe that Legal Staff at the ANA can use this rather than suing each other. Coin grading followed authentication by them as the first to certify coins.
The chartered body of the hobby needs to step up not players.
Just my opinion. >>
I was looking at it recently and I don't think just as trade associations they can do anything with the changes. They could, however, go after those importing and mailing fake bullion.