1806 Capped Bust Half Grade Opinions

Jinx86 · December 22, 2014 1:12PM

BustHalfBrian · December 22, 2014 1:14PM

Looks F borderline VF, but the surfaces look a little porous. PCGS might call it "environmental damage".

ChangeInHistory · December 22, 2014 1:18PM

F-15

NumisOxide · December 22, 2014 1:50PM

I'm thinking F-15 as well.

DRUNNER · December 22, 2014 1:53PM

I am in the F-15 camp. It should grade . . . . .

Drunner

Jinx86 · December 22, 2014 2:01PM

I like that we all agree on a grade.

However

I'm convinced its a counterfeit. I was hoping someone else would think so as well.

Weight is perfect, X-rays perfect silver content, has the right ring for a struck coin.

Ill post tomorrow what I found.

lkeigwin · December 22, 2014 2:27PM

Looks right to me. What makes you think it is counterfeit?
Lance.

coindeuce · December 22, 2014 2:37PM

Looks like a genuine Draped Bust Half to me.

VF-20.

BustHalfBrian · December 22, 2014 2:45PM

<< Looks right to me. What makes you think it is counterfeit?
Lance. >>

I agree. What are the red flags?

msch1man · December 22, 2014 2:50PM

Looks mostly VF-20 to me...maybe F-15 if you got unlucky. Haven't studied the series, but I'm curious what you found that makes you think it's not genuine.

maibockaddict · December 22, 2014 11:03PM

When the entire motto on the reverse is visible that usually indicates vf details. There appears to be a fair amount of marks making a vf20 grade appropriate.

OKbustchaser · December 22, 2014 11:29PM

What makes you think this isn't a normal O-109a "Pointed 6, No stem" half?

maibockaddict · December 23, 2014 12:41AM

<< What makes you think this isn't a normal O-109a "Pointed 6, No stem" half? >>

it may be an IDS because all the cracks may not be there. Anyway:

1806 O-109a

1806 O-109

OKbustchaser · December 23, 2014 1:04AM

<< 

<< What makes you think this isn't a normal O-109a "Pointed 6, No stem" half? >>

it may be an IDS because all the cracks may not be there. Anyway:

1806 O-109a

1806 O-109 >>

I don't see the crack at S-12, however, in my admittedly limited study of the DB halves it was my remembrance that this crack predated the crack at the date. To be honest, when I saw that crack (and the die erosion on both sides) I didn't even look for the S-12 break.

Oh, well. Teach me to stick with the CBLEs.

Edit: or to at least look them up rather than respond off the cuff.

amwldcoin · December 23, 2014 1:06AM

<< Looks F borderline VF, but the surfaces look a little porous. PCGS might call it "environmental damage". >>

My thought's exactly!

Baley · December 23, 2014 1:27AM

<< I like that we all agree on a grade.

However

I'm convinced its a counterfeit. I was hoping someone else would think so as well.

Weight is perfect, X-rays perfect silver content, has the right ring for a struck coin.

Ill post tomorrow what I found. >>

Coin looks genuine to me, I'd be really surprised to see such an excellent fake of a relatively common coin. Curious as to why you are suspicious if it passes so many tests?

I've never seen a counterfeit with the stars and reverse lettering drawn to the rim like that

BillJones · December 23, 2014 1:39AM

I'd grade it Fine-15. The actual wear might be on the VF level, but "the meat" (detail) does not support it.

AngryTurtle · December 23, 2014 2:24AM

<< I like that we all agree on a grade.

However

I'm convinced its a counterfeit. I was hoping someone else would think so as well.

Weight is perfect, X-rays perfect silver content, has the right ring for a struck coin.

Ill post tomorrow what I found. >>

Not an expert, and I know its after this was written, but before reading that I was thinking "that looks odd". I think part of it is the porosity noted by other posters, which could be environmental damage, or could be a clue to its counterfeit nature. Letters of the legends and reverse was what I was focusing on as odd.

johnny9434 · December 23, 2014 3:27AM

<< I'm thinking F-15 as well. >>

same here.

LindeDad · December 23, 2014 4:21AM

If it is fake, it's a old and dang good one.
I net the grade a little lower for the damage on the reverse.

BillJones · December 23, 2014 4:52AM

<< If it is fake, it's a old and dang good one.
I net the grade a little lower for the damage on the reverse. >>

Yes, if they start making counterfeits that are as good as that, we are in big trouble.

CharlotteDude · December 23, 2014 5:10AM

Not an expert, and I know its after this was written, but before reading that I was thinking "that looks odd". I think part of it is the porosity noted by other posters, which could be environmental damage, or could be a clue to its counterfeit nature. Letters of the legends and reverse was what I was focusing on as odd.

When I first looked at the images, I thought it looked odd also... particularly the lettering - the curves at the bottom of some letters, particularly the "B" in Liberty, and also the "T"s and "E"s on the reverse. If it is genuine, I think it will come back in an "environmental issues" holder.

'dude

VanHalen · December 23, 2014 5:17AM

If no unseen problems are evident in-hand then I'd go VF20. It looks genuine to me.

DoubleEagle59 · December 23, 2014 7:32AM

I would be surprised if that was a fake.

I haven't seen too many early halves, but from what I have seen, this one looks very real.

LanLord · December 23, 2014 8:20AM

I expect it is counterfeit.

The mouth, the nose, the lettering and all the environmental stuff are used to cover for the issues.

Purely my opinion though

nepbrs44 · December 23, 2014 8:25AM

F-15 easy.

Jinx86 · December 23, 2014 9:05AM

Sadly I cant find the other coin to show you how I know its a fake.

A group of coins had come into the store. Two Draped Bust Halves, different dates. I thought they looked too much alike but thought it was from being stored together for so long. With close examination the mark just under the eye was the same on both coins. Thought this to be odd so checked the Rev. Found the same thing. Ever single hit and mark matched perfectly to each other.

Ill look harder for the other fake half to show the group. Im sure these coins fooled quite a few people over the years.

I have a hoard of fakes at work. Ill have to post more images of then and see who can pic out the bad pieces.

This bust half also tricked every member of my coin club......then I showed them the 2nd one and how they match up. Scary stuff out there.

maibockaddict · December 23, 2014 9:07AM

Wat is with the fake concerns here? It is easily matched with the examples on my site. The later die states are typically poorly struck as this is. Yes it is a bit banged up but it is 100% real

Baley · December 23, 2014 10:43AM

<< Sadly I cant find the other coin to show you how I know its a fake.

A group of coins had come into the store. Two Draped Bust Halves, different dates. I thought they looked too much alike but thought it was from being stored together for so long. With close examination the mark just under the eye was the same on both coins. Thought this to be odd so checked the Rev. Found the same thing. Ever single hit and mark matched perfectly to each other.

Ill look harder for the other fake half to show the group. Im sure these coins fooled quite a few people over the years.

I have a hoard of fakes at work. Ill have to post more images of then and see who can pic out the bad pieces.

This bust half also tricked every member of my coin club......then I showed them the 2nd one and how they match up. Scary stuff out there. >>

This reminds me of a story Cardinal told us in this thread about 1796 half dollars with identical marks one of the coins had to be a copy of the other one, but it was very difficult to tell which one was the original

The two coins stayed together, I'd be fascinated to see pics of the other coin that matches this one mark for mark. What's the date of the other?

Nysoto · December 23, 2014 12:17PM

This is the most common die marriage of the chinese counterfeit draped bust half dollars. I have seen hundreds on eBay several years ago, usually with a photo-shopped "copy" on the auction image. Now they are deceptively sold only eBay and elsewhere without any copy stamp. They are always in this die state, an early 1806 O109a before the crack has extended into the obverse field. They are very deceptive, slightly grainy and some letters look touched up, but they retain the birfurcation seen on this die state. From an image, it could fool experts. In hand the edge with give it away. Would not be surprised if some ended up in graded TPG slabs. A lot of people have been fooled by these.

Nysoto · December 23, 2014 12:31PM

As Jinx86 mentioned, they are also in other dates than 1806, if I remember correctly 1803. The no stem through claw would give it away, and also the fake digit is a higher relief that sticks out like a sore thumb. These fakes were made from transfer dies made with a genuine 1806 O.109a. It makes me sick to see these, some of those who have been fooled probably left the hobby.

BillJones · December 23, 2014 11:49PM

<< As Jinx86 mentioned, they are also in other dates than 1806, if I remember correctly 1803. >>

If this were dated 1803 it would not be deceptive because the 1803 half dollars had Ms. Liberty in higher relief with more hair detail, even on a well worn example. This piece is of the 1806-7 type. And yes if we could see the edge lettering that might be the give away as to its genuine or counterfeit status.

JRocco · December 23, 2014 11:51PM

<< Not an expert, and I know its after this was written, but before reading that I was thinking "that looks odd". I think part of it is the porosity noted by other posters, which could be environmental damage, or could be a clue to its counterfeit nature. Letters of the legends and reverse was what I was focusing on as odd.

When I first looked at the images, I thought it looked odd also... particularly the lettering - the curves at the bottom of some letters, particularly the "B" in Liberty, and also the "T"s and "E"s on the reverse. If it is genuine, I think it will come back in an "environmental issues" holder.

'dude >>

Great observations.
The E's made me look twice, but you sure can see how this one could walk through.

Thanks Nysoto for you insight.

CaptHenway · December 24, 2014 1:07AM

<< 

<< If it is fake, it's a old and dang good one.
I net the grade a little lower for the damage on the reverse. >>

Yes, if they start making counterfeits that are as good as that, we are in big trouble. >>

There were counterfeits this good coming into ANACS back in the 70's. Remember the 1799 dollars and the 1811 $5's? We beat them down, but never out, with education, publishing characteristics of the fakes and holding seminars at coin shows telling people what to look for.

One or more of the major TPG's need to pick up this torch and run with it. Start a website showing all known fakes. Yes it will be expensive and time consuming and never be complete, but the alternative is that stuff like this keeps poisoning the well.

Perhaps a joint site by PCGS and NGC and ANACS, with all contributing information and sharing the cost based on a common percentage of their respective gross revenues.

TD

1806 Capped Bust Half Grade Opinions

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