I agree, time will tell. However, QA plans to have a couple of features that are unique versus CAC: 1) a registry set, and 2) a price guide. These are brilliant added features, IMO - particulary with the moderns. These features may play a roll in driving submissions and creating some degree of premium appreciation/stability. >>
Great observation.
With the spreads in some moderns between grades this can provide confidence in buyers to stretch for the higher grade or save cash by buying a stickered coin in a lower grade.
In other words this service can be especially beneficial for moderns since, on aver- age, price spreads between grades are larger.
<< <i>First, thanks for all the comments about our new venture.
This is a business that will work well for some, while others will have no need for it. Our mission is to provide a consistent, quality, value added service. That is our sole focus.
Stickering is not new concept, it’s just new to moderns coins. We will be stickering all coins that CAC does not sticker, plus all Lincoln Cents and Mint State Ikes – which CAC currently stickers. (We are not competing with CAC)
This concept came to me almost 9 months ago, and it has been discussed in detail with a myriad of influential dealers and collectors. With their input and our discussions, the final concept was born. We already have 25+ dealers signed up and we expect to have over 200 by the time of the FUN show in January.
We have thought through many of the issues addressed in the thread. Let me address the key ones:
Is there a need for this service? Absolutely. All coins in a given grade are not created equally. Many of you can tell the difference yourself; however, a large part of the collecting community cannot. The latter are our target customers.
Can you provide a consistent, high quality product? With grading sets, clear standards, a minimum of 2 sets of eyes on every coin coupled with a finalizer that will review every single coin, we know that we can provide a high quality, value added product. Our graders average over 20 years in the industry, specifically in the modern arena.
Will you buy/sell stickered coins? There will be a buy/sell network in place for most stickered coins. That system will be completely transparent and provide liquidity based on demand, thus pricing for stickered coins. QA✓ will not engage directly in that activity. We will not be a buy/sell company, just a verification company. The buy/sell platform will be another newly formed company backed by a select group of power dealers. This network will not be available immediately.
How will you deal with spotting on modern coins? At this juncture neither major grading service guarantees spotted eagles or copper. QA✓ will not knowingly grade coins that have spots (minor spotting consistent with solid quality for the grade is OK-e.g. a few hidden flyspecks on a MS64 Lincoln). Spots can appear after coins are graded due to a variety of factors out of our control. For those reasons, we will not guarantee subsequent spotting on eagles or copper.
Any additional questions can be directed via PM or thru our website – www.qacoins.com
Take a 1997 $100 proof Platinum coin where PCGS has graded about 3.5% of all the coins they have seen since 1997 in PR70DCAM under their standard and NGC has graded (last I looked) around 50% of the coins they have seen under their standard (please correct me here with the exact % grade through rate at NGC if anyone has it). For the moment, let's use 3.5% vs. 50%. So, which grading standard is used for your system? I may ask a follow up question after you answer. Thanks.
Wondercoin >>
Ah....the one world order argument.........can there really be one standard? Will James have his own or one that plays out the same.........that satisfies most or at least.........the end result? Remember, it's not an exact science anyone can presume to know nor insist on.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Leo. James answered my question privately. Essentially, he will apply his own standard, which is to be expected. He also showed me that the grade through comparison was closer to 10-1 more at NGC as opposed to the 16-1 that I estimated. While James did not say this, I will. There are also some factors that play into that 10-1 differential that could bring that figure down a little bit further, but that would be a major digression from the OP's intent of this thread. Since our host has not permitted discussion of CAC on their message boards, I assume discussion of QA will also not be permitted, so I will once again wish James good luck with his venture and keep an eye on the progress his company makes in the area of moderns- most importantly whether value is added by separating "the good, the bad and the ugly". Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Take a 1997 $100 proof Platinum coin where PCGS has graded about 3.5% of all the coins they have seen since 1997 in PR70DCAM under their standard and NGC has graded (last I looked) around 50% of the coins they have seen under their standard (please correct me here with the exact % grade through rate at NGC if anyone has it). For the moment, let's use 3.5% vs. 50%. So, which grading standard is used for your system? I may ask a follow up question after you answer. Thanks.
Wondercoin >>
Ah....the one world order argument.........can there really be one standard? Will James have his own or one that plays out the same.........that satisfies most or at least.........the end result? Remember, it's not an exact science anyone can presume to know nor insist on.
Leo >>
I think that familiararity with "both" TPG's would be required in that, as with CAC, the sticker insures that the grade assigned the coin "within the slab" is solid "for the specific TPG".
An attempt at stating that one service is better than the other is rather pointless since different coins within these two TPG's demand "different" prices.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Evolution being what it is (theoretically ), I wonder why some of these proliferating sticker companies in the future would not appropriate the function of the existing "first tier" of this process (i.e., the current grading companies), and just slab coins themselves? After all, some of our current grading companies started out intending to introduce grading standeards of greater quality and offer reliable and respected opinions....
Point two, and more discouraging: stickers and qualifiers of all sorts now create new groups of less desireable coins market-wise at every level of evaluation. As has been pointed out, each entity among the increasing pack of middle-men adds costs. The collector who wants to preserve value (or at least their monetary investment) feels pressure to pony up for each level of evaluation. Failing to do so makes their collection less qualified for the "sight unseen" market, or at least more suspect than the coins with the parade of stickers and qualifiers attached. The effect repeatedly shifts standards for marketability and adds significant costs, even though the coins themselves remain the same.
It all makes the collector want to just fill Whitman folders like days of yore, and drop out of the whole mess.
CAC doesn't buy coins. CAC dealers do buy CAC stickered coins but only if they want them and only at their price. >>
Yes it does. That's part of the reason it has the market presence/influence that it does. Its opinions are backed by its own money.
I am curious how the sales network for this service will work if it isn't directly affiliated. To me, this is key to its success. With the presence of a market maker for its product, I think the service has a chance to be very successful and provide liquidity in a market that has taken a large hit in the last several years from the highs that the coins had in the early 2000s.
<< <i>Its another gimmick to make a quick buck from the gullible and ignorant or to overprice coins which they have not been able to sell. I recently picked up a PCGS 70 coin (Mod silver dollar) at 45% of PCGS Price Guide Value. These coins are in such dire straits they can't even bring anywhere near market value at auction. And people are going to pay money to have some guy look at it and re-assure them its a 70 LOL. >>
If the coins are consistently bringing below PCGS Price Guide values, then it is not that the coins are not selling at market value. It is because the PCGS Price Guide is severely inflated on these. I think the coins are selling for their true market value. >>
Suit yourself but stickering modern coins is not going to wring any more money out of them. The MS 70 mod I picked up above I paid $56 so I am going to pay shipping plus $12.50 to somebody to agree with my opinion? No way. Some friends of mine who run a coin shop offer 97% of melt (the refiner pays them 98%) on mod gold coins raw, 69, or 70 (Example Martha Washington First Spouse $10). I don't believe a sticker will affect their offer.
It all makes the collector want to just fill Whitman folders like days of yore, and drop out of the whole mess. >>
This is one of the greatest strengths of moderns; the ability to form really great collections on a shoestring. A nice gemmy set of any denomination can be assembled just by looking through sets and dealer stock. The cost is nominal but carefully assembled sets will have some very highly desirable coins and, more importantly, provide a lot of satisfaction for the collector. It's a challenge that can be met by even an unsophisticated collector with a mod- est budget.
Registry collectors are ahead of the curve and need the protection of their "investment" by third party graders. I certainly see your point about all the money being drawn out of coins and there are various forces that have been doing this for decades now.
As long as there's a two way market. You know how those three pronged plugs all have a MALE end. That's to INSERT ( into). So, I wish whoever goes on any expedition ,that they are focused on the customers, and prepared for the expectations that come from "backing" the graders up. In the end, for me and moderns, it seems the majority are for flipping and few worth "holding" long term, except for the joy of assemblage, rarity factor, or "condition rarity".
In the case of the latter, it's a bit new to tell anyone that changes occur and finally, "To each their own". I didn't read up all on what another person or company is doing, so disqualify everything you may disagree with, and remember
Caveat Emptor.
Enter at your own risk. It's a great hobby. Holders or not.
<< <i>Its another gimmick to make a quick buck from the gullible and ignorant or to overprice coins which they have not been able to sell. I recently picked up a PCGS 70 coin (Mod silver dollar) at 45% of PCGS Price Guide Value. These coins are in such dire straits they can't even bring anywhere near market value at auction. And people are going to pay money to have some guy look at it and re-assure them its a 70 LOL. >>
If the coins are consistently bringing below PCGS Price Guide values, then it is not that the coins are not selling at market value. It is because the PCGS Price Guide is severely inflated on these. I think the coins are selling for their true market value. >>
Suit yourself but stickering modern coins is not going to wring any more money out of them. The MS 70 mod I picked up above I paid $56 so I am going to pay shipping plus $12.50 to somebody to agree with my opinion? No way. Some friends of mine who run a coin shop offer 97% of melt (the refiner pays them 98%) on mod gold coins raw, 69, or 70 (Example Martha Washington First Spouse $10). I don't believe a sticker will affect their offer. >>
I suppose that it depends on what moderns you are referencing. If you are looking at top pop mint state Ikes, PF70 DCAM Ikes, and 1995-W PF70 DCAM silver eagles, then I think the service makes sense. Ditto for some of the variety coins that command large premiums.
"I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a career, I don't want to do that." -Lloyd Dobler
<< <i>Point two, and more discouraging: stickers and qualifiers of all sorts now create new groups of less desireable coins market-wise at every level of evaluation. As has been pointed out, each entity among the increasing pack of middle-men adds costs. The collector who wants to preserve value (or at least their monetary investment) feels pressure to pony up for each level of evaluation. Failing to do so makes their collection less qualified for the "sight unseen" market, or at least more suspect than the coins with the parade of stickers and qualifiers attached. The effect repeatedly shifts standards for marketability and adds significant costs, even though the coins themselves remain the same. >>
I avoid "sticker shock" by collecting modern commems at the "less desirable" level. Specifically, MS69 or PR69 First Strike (preferably with the flag label). The coins and holders look virtually as nice as those in the next grade up with a sticker, and the cost in the aftermarket is about the same as raw. (At the 69 level, First Strike adds very little to the cost of most moderns.) Financial risk is minimized because the buy/sell spread isn't huge, and there are no worries about whether the demand for the 70 grade and stickers will be sustained in the long run.
How about a OK sticker or Good, Very close or just made it. I cant see how so many of us jumped on this stuff. It's getting out of hand now if CAC would just have done it all i would say good for them but to say we dont do moderns or this or that tells me they are a limited Co. And others now have the opt to wipe them out all they need to say is We do it all just send it in and we will take care of it we are not them other guys.
Comments
<< <i>
I agree, time will tell. However, QA plans to have a couple of features that are unique versus CAC: 1) a registry set, and 2) a price guide. These are brilliant added features, IMO - particulary with the moderns. These features may play a roll in driving submissions and creating some degree of premium appreciation/stability. >>
Great observation.
With the spreads in some moderns between grades this can provide confidence
in buyers to stretch for the higher grade or save cash by buying a stickered coin
in a lower grade.
In other words this service can be especially beneficial for moderns since, on aver-
age, price spreads between grades are larger.
<< <i>First, thanks for all the comments about our new venture.
This is a business that will work well for some, while others will have no need for it. Our mission is to provide a consistent, quality, value added service. That is our sole focus.
Stickering is not new concept, it’s just new to moderns coins. We will be stickering all coins that CAC does not sticker, plus all Lincoln Cents and Mint State Ikes – which CAC currently stickers. (We are not competing with CAC)
This concept came to me almost 9 months ago, and it has been discussed in detail with a myriad of influential dealers and collectors. With their input and our discussions, the final concept was born. We already have 25+ dealers signed up and we expect to have over 200 by the time of the FUN show in January.
We have thought through many of the issues addressed in the thread. Let me address the key ones:
Is there a need for this service? Absolutely. All coins in a given grade are not created equally. Many of you can tell the difference yourself; however, a large part of the collecting community cannot. The latter are our target customers.
Can you provide a consistent, high quality product? With grading sets, clear standards, a minimum of 2 sets of eyes on every coin coupled with a finalizer that will review every single coin, we know that we can provide a high quality, value added product. Our graders average over 20 years in the industry, specifically in the modern arena.
Will you buy/sell stickered coins? There will be a buy/sell network in place for most stickered coins. That system will be completely transparent and provide liquidity based on demand, thus pricing for stickered coins. QA✓ will not engage directly in that activity. We will not be a buy/sell company, just a verification company. The buy/sell platform will be another newly formed company backed by a select group of power dealers. This network will not be available immediately.
How will you deal with spotting on modern coins? At this juncture neither major grading service guarantees spotted eagles or copper. QA✓ will not knowingly grade coins that have spots (minor spotting consistent with solid quality for the grade is OK-e.g. a few hidden flyspecks on a MS64 Lincoln). Spots can appear after coins are graded due to a variety of factors out of our control. For those reasons, we will not guarantee subsequent spotting on eagles or copper.
Any additional questions can be directed via PM or thru our website – www.qacoins.com
Thanks,
The team at QA✓ >>
Best of luck.
...And to think I knew you when.
<< <i>James. Good luck with your venture.
I have a question ...
Take a 1997 $100 proof Platinum coin where PCGS has graded about 3.5% of all the coins they have seen since 1997 in PR70DCAM under their standard and NGC has graded (last I looked) around 50% of the coins they have seen under their standard (please correct me here with the exact % grade through rate at NGC if anyone has it). For the moment, let's use 3.5% vs. 50%. So, which grading standard is used for your system? I may ask a follow up question after you answer. Thanks.
Wondercoin >>
Ah....the one world order argument.........can there really be one standard? Will James have his own or one that plays out the same.........that satisfies most or at least.........the end result? Remember, it's not an exact science anyone can presume to know nor insist on.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>James. Good luck with your venture.
I have a question ...
Take a 1997 $100 proof Platinum coin where PCGS has graded about 3.5% of all the coins they have seen since 1997 in PR70DCAM under their standard and NGC has graded (last I looked) around 50% of the coins they have seen under their standard (please correct me here with the exact % grade through rate at NGC if anyone has it). For the moment, let's use 3.5% vs. 50%. So, which grading standard is used for your system? I may ask a follow up question after you answer. Thanks.
Wondercoin >>
Ah....the one world order argument.........can there really be one standard? Will James have his own or one that plays out the same.........that satisfies most or at least.........the end result? Remember, it's not an exact science anyone can presume to know nor insist on.
Leo >>
I think that familiararity with "both" TPG's would be required in that, as with CAC, the sticker insures that the grade assigned the coin "within the slab" is solid "for the specific TPG".
An attempt at stating that one service is better than the other is rather pointless since different coins within these two TPG's demand "different" prices.
The name is LEE!
Point two, and more discouraging: stickers and qualifiers of all sorts now create new groups of less desireable coins market-wise at every level of evaluation. As has been pointed out, each entity among the increasing pack of middle-men adds costs. The collector who wants to preserve value (or at least their monetary investment) feels pressure to pony up for each level of evaluation. Failing to do so makes their collection less qualified for the "sight unseen" market, or at least more suspect than the coins with the parade of stickers and qualifiers attached. The effect repeatedly shifts standards for marketability and adds significant costs, even though the coins themselves remain the same.
It all makes the collector want to just fill Whitman folders like days of yore, and drop out of the whole mess.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
<< <i>
<< <i>Do they buy coins they sticker like CAC? >>
CAC doesn't buy coins. CAC dealers do buy CAC stickered coins but only if they want them and only at their price. >>
Yes it does. That's part of the reason it has the market presence/influence that it does. Its opinions are backed by its own money.
I am curious how the sales network for this service will work if it isn't directly affiliated. To me, this is key to its success. With the presence of a market maker for its product, I think the service has a chance to be very successful and provide liquidity in a market that has taken a large hit in the last several years from the highs that the coins had in the early 2000s.
<< <i>
<< <i>Its another gimmick to make a quick buck from the gullible and ignorant or to overprice coins which they have not been able to sell. I recently picked up a PCGS 70 coin (Mod silver dollar) at 45% of PCGS Price Guide Value. These coins are in such dire straits they can't even bring anywhere near market value at auction. And people are going to pay money to have some guy look at it and re-assure them its a 70 LOL. >>
If the coins are consistently bringing below PCGS Price Guide values, then it is not that the coins are not selling at market value. It is because the PCGS Price Guide is severely inflated on these. I think the coins are selling for their true market value. >>
Suit yourself but stickering modern coins is not going to wring any more money out of them. The MS 70 mod I picked up above I paid $56 so I am going to pay shipping plus $12.50 to somebody to agree with my opinion? No way. Some friends of mine who run a coin shop offer 97% of melt (the refiner pays them 98%) on mod gold coins raw, 69, or 70 (Example Martha Washington First Spouse $10). I don't believe a sticker will affect their offer.
<< <i>
It all makes the collector want to just fill Whitman folders like days of yore, and drop out of the whole mess. >>
This is one of the greatest strengths of moderns; the ability to form really great collections
on a shoestring. A nice gemmy set of any denomination can be assembled just by looking
through sets and dealer stock. The cost is nominal but carefully assembled sets will have
some very highly desirable coins and, more importantly, provide a lot of satisfaction for the
collector. It's a challenge that can be met by even an unsophisticated collector with a mod-
est budget.
Registry collectors are ahead of the curve and need the protection of their "investment" by
third party graders. I certainly see your point about all the money being drawn out of coins
and there are various forces that have been doing this for decades now.
In the end, for me and moderns, it seems the majority are for flipping and few worth "holding" long term, except for the joy of assemblage, rarity factor, or "condition rarity".
In the case of the latter, it's a bit new to tell anyone that changes occur and finally, "To each their own".
I didn't read up all on what another person or company is doing, so disqualify everything you may disagree with, and remember
Caveat Emptor.
Enter at your own risk. It's a great hobby. Holders or not.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Its another gimmick to make a quick buck from the gullible and ignorant or to overprice coins which they have not been able to sell. I recently picked up a PCGS 70 coin (Mod silver dollar) at 45% of PCGS Price Guide Value. These coins are in such dire straits they can't even bring anywhere near market value at auction. And people are going to pay money to have some guy look at it and re-assure them its a 70 LOL. >>
If the coins are consistently bringing below PCGS Price Guide values, then it is not that the coins are not selling at market value. It is because the PCGS Price Guide is severely inflated on these. I think the coins are selling for their true market value. >>
Suit yourself but stickering modern coins is not going to wring any more money out of them. The MS 70 mod I picked up above I paid $56 so I am going to pay shipping plus $12.50 to somebody to agree with my opinion? No way. Some friends of mine who run a coin shop offer 97% of melt (the refiner pays them 98%) on mod gold coins raw, 69, or 70 (Example Martha Washington First Spouse $10). I don't believe a sticker will affect their offer. >>
I suppose that it depends on what moderns you are referencing. If you are looking at top pop mint state Ikes, PF70 DCAM Ikes, and 1995-W PF70 DCAM silver eagles, then I think the service makes sense. Ditto for some of the variety coins that command large premiums.
"I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a career, I don't want to do that." -Lloyd Dobler
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Point two, and more discouraging: stickers and qualifiers of all sorts now create new groups of less desireable coins market-wise at every level of evaluation. As has been pointed out, each entity among the increasing pack of middle-men adds costs. The collector who wants to preserve value (or at least their monetary investment) feels pressure to pony up for each level of evaluation. Failing to do so makes their collection less qualified for the "sight unseen" market, or at least more suspect than the coins with the parade of stickers and qualifiers attached. The effect repeatedly shifts standards for marketability and adds significant costs, even though the coins themselves remain the same. >>
I avoid "sticker shock" by collecting modern commems at the "less desirable" level. Specifically, MS69 or PR69 First Strike (preferably with the flag label). The coins and holders look virtually as nice as those in the next grade up with a sticker, and the cost in the aftermarket is about the same as raw. (At the 69 level, First Strike adds very little to the cost of most moderns.) Financial risk is minimized because the buy/sell spread isn't huge, and there are no worries about whether the demand for the 70 grade and stickers will be sustained in the long run.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Hoard the keys.