One has to be careful what they wish for. Nearly everyone (including myself) wanted the grading services to start designating Roosie dimes with "FB". It took years to convince them to do so. Once, done, the majority of coins that failed to achieve the FB designation essentially crashed in price (by up to about 70% in a couple years). While the coins that did receive the "FB" designation did become more valuable out of the box, throughout the years those coins also (for the most part) began drfiting downward in value and many are now worth less than what they were worth before the designation started. For a great read on the Roosie market, check out the Roosie thread at the top of the page on the Registry Forum.
You guys may recall the 1982 GW Half Dollar Commem that I bought a couple years ago from a national PCGS authorized dealer already in a PCGS-MS70 (from their retail site) that I handed back to DW at PCGS and it regraded MS68 (just as I graded it when I saw it). That coin might have traded for $15,000 - $20,000+ in a major auction had I not returned it to PCGS after paying less than $4,000 as I recall. Sure I left upwards of at least $10,000 on the table by not doing the wrong thing and may folks told me I was essentially a fool for not flipping the "hot potato" and looking the other way. I was shown examples of others making the money doing the wrong thing and never being accountable for it. Did D.W. and PCGS appreciate it? I hope so. While that was an extreme example of a bad coin in a "70" holder, bear in mind that there are myriad bad coins in plastic at every grade level, just as there are "upgrade" coins at every level up to the 69 grade.
But, I am afraid that many collectors will not be able to "handle the truth" (Jessep) when they discover that the "70" grade does indeed have a high end and a low end to that grade. In my humble opinion, it is foolhardy for the services to not use the + grade for 69 graded coins and I have been saying so for years. I can bring my 22 year old son (who I "trained") by anyone's office (ask Ian how he did at GC looking at some 70 grade material last month) and he can discern the 69 from the 70 coins (in plastic - with specks of dust or anything else in the holder) in seconds with pinpoint accuracy. The notion that graders at a top service can not tell the difference between 69s and 70s so that the 69+ grade is not possible is absurd. Again, my 22 year old son can do it with pin point accuracy and my 24 year old daughter is possibly even better! And, I say this in a non-argumentative way. For what the modern market really could use is a 69+ grade (but I better be careful what I "wish for" as it is quite possible that many of those low end 70's being graded might then fall into a 69+ holder)!
As always, just my two cents. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>It'd be interesting to compare with the comments that were thrown about regarding CAC at first. If they're able to provide a service that has the same value as CAC is largely seen to have today, why not start such a business? >>
That's a good point and I often think about how CAC was bemoaned here at first. Now...........
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
<< <i>>>>I wonder how much demand there will be for this type of service? <<<
Absolutely zero zilch nada interest here.......same as CAC!! >>
Which is why so many coins have been submitted to CAC and continue to be submitted to CAC, right? And the same reason that these pieces are fetching prices over what even solid graded non-stickered coins sell for, right?
>>>Which is why so many coins have been submitted to CAC and continue to be submitted to CAC, right? And the same reason that these pieces are fetching prices over what even solid graded non-stickered coins sell for, right? <<<
The only reason for this is because so many out here have gone GAGA over a sticker put on a slab by someone that doesn't know anymore about nice coins than the rest of us that have been looking at coins for 50 years or more! I don't need JA to tell me if a coin is nice or not.....just don't need it!
CAC has a roll for coins with wide price spreads between grades. I do think it is over used lower valued coins where it is simply in the way of allowing the coin to speak for itself. I am unable to see the need or added value for a CAC sticker on an EF45 Seated Half that has the look.
QA may help sort out some of the questions surrounding the survival of high grade modern clad coinage that will lead to realistic valuations.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Since this service will centered high grade and more that likely over priced modern coins, here is my level of enthusiasm:
Last week someone posted a string about one's age and the definition of "modern junk." To me modern coins do not get to deserve to be called "junk" until they become massively over priced because of something as trivial as a 1 point increase in grade in the range from MS-66 to 70. This type of coin poses little interest for me.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The overall demeanor of comments on this thread seem to be specifically focused on the MS/PR69-MS/PR70 spread which simply is not the case since "bullion based" coins represent but a small portion of the perceived modern coin spectrum.
How many MS69 Washington Quarters exist from the late 60's? The 70's? The 80's? The 90's? A quick glance at the population reports show a mere 170 coins have hit MS68 between the years 1965 and 1998. Are Washington Quarters in the MS66/MS67 grade really junk unworthy of being collected in the highest grade/strike possible?
Is the bickering amongst the posters really so shallow that they totally discount the efforts of the budding numismatists that actually go through their pocket change looking for the best example that they can find?
Wow! Such encouragement.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
When CAC first came around I had no need for the "Sticker" on any of my coins but then later on when I was a part of The IKE Group CAC asked some of us to send them our IKE's which they used in their initial evaluation to establish a base line for approving or rejecting IKE'S for the CAC Sticker.
Gradually I began to see the value and benefit in having the approval sticker on my coins. I started buying stickered coins,,, I have even sold coins that did not sticker and replaced them with coins that were stickered as I have a few sets that I have set a goal to have 100% "approved" coins. I have been working on this goal for several years on a couple of sets,,,,, almost there on both of them.
At first some of my rejected coins I didn't understand why they were rejected, but later after studying the rejects and comparing them to approved coins it became easier to see where I was going wrong.
I think everyone SHOULD agree that a 2nd opinion is not a bad thing. I know I feel better buying a coin that someone other than myself agrees is a better than average coin for the grade.
The value in this approval sticker will lie 100% in the competence of the people doing the approval. I know James Sego and have complete confidence in is character and grading abilities which will make this venture a success.
I look forward to the launch of this new service and plan to support it fully.
Love how speculation and complaining keeps going on and on...about CAC, about this service, etc.
Well, for this service, it appears that James Sego has been identified as the key, or one of the keys, behind it. He is a forum member and he is also a dealer who people here know.
So, it would seem to be plausible that someone would have pinged him by now to let him know about the thread. It's also the night before Thanksgiving, so he may not have a lot of time free and be tied to a computer in order to pop in here.
However, I am sure that, if he wants to, he can come here and give an outline....or, at least, give an outline on another forum and let people know about it with a link or direction.
I am sure he would be the best one to answer about this service, rather than just speculation by others, on if he offers a buyback for stickered coins, or if the focus is only really on 69/70 grades, or anything else about it.
I mean, come on people, those that hate CAC...we know...you repeat it every post you can. Those that hate moderns....same thing...we know already. Let's just have someone who knows James ping him and see if he will set some answers straight
Bravo Bochiman. I personally was just a little tongue in cheek with the "Quack" inference, in my first post…. and a little serious too with "Quit Undermining A Coin King". And it's just "business", like we say in the field.
One has to be careful what they wish for. Nearly everyone (including myself) wanted the grading services to start designating Roosie dimes with "FB". It took years to convince them to do so. Once, done, the majority of coins that failed to achieve the FB designation essentially crashed in price (by up to about 70% in a couple years). While the coins that did receive the "FB" designation did become more valuable out of the box, throughout the years those coins also (for the most part) began drfiting downward in value and many are now worth less than what they were worth before the designation started. For a great read on the Roosie market, check out the Roosie thread at the top of the page on the Registry Forum.
You guys may recall the 1982 GW Half Dollar Commem that I bought a couple years ago from a national PCGS authorized dealer already in a PCGS-MS70 (from their retail site) that I handed back to DW at PCGS and it regraded MS68 (just as I graded it when I saw it). That coin might have traded for $15,000 - $20,000+ in a major auction had I not returned it to PCGS after paying less than $4,000 as I recall. Sure I left upwards of at least $10,000 on the table by not doing the wrong thing and may folks told me I was essentially a fool for not flipping the "hot potato" and looking the other way. I was shown examples of others making the money doing the wrong thing and never being accountable for it. Did D.W. and PCGS appreciate it? I hope so. While that was an extreme example of a bad coin in a "70" holder, bear in mind that there are myriad bad coins in plastic at every grade level, just as there are "upgrade" coins at every level up to the 69 grade.
But, I am afraid that many collectors will not be able to "handle the truth" (Jessep) when they discover that the "70" grade does indeed have a high end and a low end to that grade. In my humble opinion, it is foolhardy for the services to not use the + grade for 69 graded coins and I have been saying so for years. I can bring my 22 year old son (who I "trained") by anyone's office (ask Ian how he did at GC looking at some 70 grade material last month) and he can discern the 69 from the 70 coins (in plastic - with specks of dust or anything else in the holder) in seconds with pinpoint accuracy. The notion that graders at a top service can not tell the difference between 69s and 70s so that the 69+ grade is not possible is absurd. Again, my 22 year old son can do it with pin point accuracy and my 24 year old daughter is possibly even better! And, I say this in a non-argumentative way. For what the modern market really could use is a 69+ grade (but I better be careful what I "wish for" as it is quite possible that many of those low end 70's being graded might then fall into a 69+ holder)!
As always, just my two cents. Wondercoin >>
Since there are high end and low end 70s, should there also be a 70+ in addition to a 69+? Having both could help sort out some grading issues at the top end.
One has to be careful what they wish for. Nearly everyone (including myself) wanted the grading services to start designating Roosie dimes with "FB". It took years to convince them to do so. Once, done, the majority of coins that failed to achieve the FB designation essentially crashed in price (by up to about 70% in a couple years). While the coins that did receive the "FB" designation did become more valuable out of the box, throughout the years those coins also (for the most part) began drfiting downward in value and many are now worth less than what they were worth before the designation started. For a great read on the Roosie market, check out the Roosie thread at the top of the page on the Registry Forum.
You guys may recall the 1982 GW Half Dollar Commem that I bought a couple years ago from a national PCGS authorized dealer already in a PCGS-MS70 (from their retail site) that I handed back to DW at PCGS and it regraded MS68 (just as I graded it when I saw it). That coin might have traded for $15,000 - $20,000+ in a major auction had I not returned it to PCGS after paying less than $4,000 as I recall. Sure I left upwards of at least $10,000 on the table by not doing the wrong thing and may folks told me I was essentially a fool for not flipping the "hot potato" and looking the other way. I was shown examples of others making the money doing the wrong thing and never being accountable for it. Did D.W. and PCGS appreciate it? I hope so. While that was an extreme example of a bad coin in a "70" holder, bear in mind that there are myriad bad coins in plastic at every grade level, just as there are "upgrade" coins at every level up to the 69 grade.
But, I am afraid that many collectors will not be able to "handle the truth" (Jessep) when they discover that the "70" grade does indeed have a high end and a low end to that grade. In my humble opinion, it is foolhardy for the services to not use the + grade for 69 graded coins and I have been saying so for years. I can bring my 22 year old son (who I "trained") by anyone's office (ask Ian how he did at GC looking at some 70 grade material last month) and he can discern the 69 from the 70 coins (in plastic - with specks of dust or anything else in the holder) in seconds with pinpoint accuracy. The notion that graders at a top service can not tell the difference between 69s and 70s so that the 69+ grade is not possible is absurd. Again, my 22 year old son can do it with pin point accuracy and my 24 year old daughter is possibly even better! And, I say this in a non-argumentative way. For what the modern market really could use is a 69+ grade (but I better be careful what I "wish for" as it is quite possible that many of those low end 70's being graded might then fall into a 69+ holder)!
As always, just my two cents. Wondercoin >>
Your statement about the 70 grade is exactly what is wrong with the grade of 70. A 70 is supposed to be a perfect coin! How can there be a low end and a high end 70? I will answer it for you in my mind! The low end 70 should not have graded 70!
My own experience submitting moderns is that grading is sometimes inconsistent (1%-2% of the time). Moderns don't always benefit from the same scrutiny as regular submissions. I think the services are very careful with the "money" grades, but it feels to me as though the other stuff sometimes shuffles through. I could always justify undergrades to myself by thinking the services were just being tough. I never could reconcile myself to the overgrades. I wish James the best with his fast follower strategy.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I think LeotheLyon is right..........premature for now. Although, when the new Uber reverse proof what not comes out, gets flipped, then stickered and the price drops for a few years. You can rest knowing that the coin stickered and it will have value and be a wise decision........or maybe NOT !!! and I think NOT>>>> Not to mention a lot of the modern coins do get haze and change in holders. I'd be worried that they don' t have the stability of a 150 year old CBH or Seated coin with an aged patina. Si or no?
Bottom Line - If the current market supports CAC Stickers for Classic Coins then the market will invariably support QA Stickers for Modern Coins which will include ALL Lincolns Cents (1909-Present) Jefferson Nickels (1938-Present) Roosevelt Dimes (1946-Present) Washington Quarters (1932-Present) Kennedy Halfs (1964-Present) Eisenhower Dollars SBA Dollar Sacagawea Dollars Presidential Dollars Modern Commemoratives-Clad-Silver-Gold (1982-present) Modern Bullion
Given the absolute fact that First Strike Bullion commands premiums on the open market, I see no reason why a QA Stickered Coin would not validate that premium.
After all, all Moderns are coins, despite the feelings of certain elitists, and they are ALL collected.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I'm in favor of this new development and support it, especially if it is run by someone who has an eye for top-grade modern coins. James Sego built the finest set of PCGS-graded Ike $1's and he definitely has the eye for such coins. A few years ago when PCGS displayed his Ike set (along with another top registry set of Ikes) at a Long Beach show, I viewed both sets and I liked EVERY COIN in his set.
C-N clad modern coin series are a part of our numismatic history and there are collectors interested in building top-grade sets of these series. QA could become the "CAC" of these series and add to the confidence of potential buyers of these coins.
I will watch with great interest how this development continues.
Clearly, there's a niche here waiting to be filled. If the new service succeeds, CAC will almost certainly have to open up to these coins as well.
The new stickers will provide a new opportunity for telemarketers to load up gullible buyers with common coins in fancy plastic in my opinion. I personally can't get excited over the difference between 68 and 70 in a 2013 quarter, I just can't. Sorry. There are millions of them and they're both shiny...stick 'em in the Dansco and save up for something that's rare.
Just my 2 cents, and anyway I wish success to the venture if it's well-run.
<< <i>I'm in favor of this new development and support it, especially if it is run by someone who has an eye for top-grade modern coins. James Sego built the finest set of PCGS-graded Ike $1's and he definitely has the eye for such coins. A few years ago when PCGS displayed his Ike set (along with another top registry set of Ikes) at a Long Beach show, I viewed both sets and I liked EVERY COIN in his set.
C-N clad modern coin series are a part of our numismatic history and there are collectors interested in building top-grade sets of these series. QA could become the "CAC" of these series and add to the confidence of potential buyers of these coins.
I will watch with great interest how this development continues. >>
I love clad and consider it vastly underappreciated. I have a great deal of respect for James Sego and consider him one of the most experienced and knowledgeable people in the world about clads and their grading (especially Ikes of course).
While third party grading is important for both modern and classic coins in the current coin market this development is likely to hasten the day that coins are graded based on their characteristics rather than their market value. As collectors see more and more levels of preservation appear based on new cri- teria they will be ever more inclined to demand that coins are graded in a more defining way. This is a good interim means. Modern coins will benefit greatly by a change to grading and away from pricing be- cause they are better suited to this kind of scrutiny.
Oh, good, so they will review Silver Roosies? CAC reviews Ikes but not Silver Roosies as of now.
Within the coin industry I attempted to spread my wings into the modern 69/70 market several years back. Based on my results from PCGS it was either they do not consistently apply the same standard for 70s or I was applying the wrong standards. Of my first batch, only one of the 93-S clad 50c came back a 70 and it wasn't even the best one of the bunch. I have taken a close look at many moderns. I have never seen a perfect coin with 10x magnification, not even the 1978-S $1 PCGS PR70DCAM I once owned was perfect. But isn't it only required to pass 5x magnification? In any case, even with the naked eye I can catch blemishes on almost every PCGS 70 coin. Yes, 70s are in general better than 69s. I have seen some 69s that looked better than ones I've seen as 70s. If I were a collector in the field I would go for very frosty solid 69s - you could come up with just as good of a set, if not better, than just buying 70s generically for 5-25% of the price. If this modern stickering service is successful it could close that certain window of opportunity.
For the past few years I have slowly come to expect that the services will announce at any time they will start doing 69+.
I have existed since the creation of this world and will exist until its end. Only my form will change. For these 80 human life years, I have the benefit of having a functioning body and consciousness. I will not waste this opportunity.
To this point, I have had no idea whatsoever who is behind this new company mentioned in this thread. Even now, I hear is it J. Sego through some postings here, but he has not come here and confirmed exactly who the owners of the new company are/will be (or whether he is one of them). I say this to be clear that my comments to this point have no bearing on who exactly is behind this new company. They are just general comments.
But, let assume it is J. Sego.
First, of course, his specialty area is Mint State Ike Dollars and CAC already CAC's MS Ikes. So, it sounds like this new company might be in direct competition with CAC as far as MS Ikes are concerned? Regarding proof Ike dollars, there are very, very few PR70DCAM coins (well under 1% of the graded coins). Will folks want stickers on 11 different proof Ikes in 69DCAM that sell for $299 for a complete set of all 11 coins ($27/coin on average)? I guess we will see.
Second, as I mentioned before, it will be very difficult for an active dealer to ever also sticker coins he is selling (especially moderns I would think). Consider this ... one submits (200) gold or silver or platinum ultra modern coins and gets back (50) PR70DCAM coins from the grading service. The dealer truly likes (20) for quality 70's deserving of the sticker and (30) are not sticker worthy. So, what happens to those (30) coins? Does the dealer sell them at a steep discount because they are really 69's in his book? Again, referring to my prior post, when the collectors of Roosie Dimes got PCGS to designate the coins as FB, the non FS coins essentially crashed in price and even the FB coins are, often times, worth less today than before the designation was adopted. I am having a hard time seeing how stickering these moderns will "add value" overall like CAC stickers added value to classics. I guess time will tell.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>To this point, I have had no idea whatsoever who is behind this new company mentioned in this thread. Even now, I hear is it J. Sego through some postings here, but he has not come here and confirmed exactly who the owners of the new company are/will be (or whether he is one of them). I say this to be clear that my comments to this point have no bearing on who exactly is behind this new company. They are just general comments. >>
Don't be shy Mitch. Go to the website. Collectibles Quality Assurance Company Not everything is fully functional but the group which is starting it up is fully accounted for.
As for selling "stickered coins"?
It wasn't all too long ago that someone could try to sell a raw high grade Washington quarter from say 1978 and most folks would have put a market value on it of perhaps .75 cents? $1.00
However, today, that very same coin in an MS67 slab would bring considerably more than $1.00
I see no difference with adding a sticker. Especially since the differentiation between MS66 and MS67 "still" represents a significant dollar amount.
To me, this is simply a plus for the Modern Coin enthusiast.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I don't think anything about the service is "well put" and another thing have you ever been in a "three way gang bang"? >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I have the greatest respect for James Segos ability to do this right. >>
This is the bottom line---is the person evaluating these modern coins a true expert? If so, there is value added for those who aren't an expert. I'm guessing those who are disparaging this new company don't collect modern coins. Many moderns can have a big price jump in the next higher grade and this service is well suited for these coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
CAC doesn't buy coins. CAC dealers do buy CAC stickered coins but only if they want them and only at their price.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Of course I've been in a three way gang bang. Let me think. There's Ebay, Pay Pal , and the IRS.
You forgot the USPS, shipping & insurance costs. If you add a primary TPG and then - yet another middleman as a secondary TPG, it's getting pretty crowded - that's 6 (six) middlemen looking to stay in business because you want to buy a nice coin. Get ready to pony up. Question of the Day - How many middlemen does it take before there's a real financial disincentive in collecting a Modern series?
Wondercoin's observation, "I am afraid that many collectors will not be able to "handle the truth" (Jessep) when they discover that the "70" grade does indeed have a high end and a low end to that grade" implies that there's about to be a major bifurcation in the Moderns market and that most of the previously-graded PCGS 70 coins (50% +) will now reside under a dark cloud of suspicion as long as they haven't been re-examined by James Sego.
What makes me crazy is that I do own some 69 coins that are noticeably worse coins than some of my other coins that failed to grade 70. I consider this to mean that some of the 69 coins were indeed overgraded, and some of my submission coins were undergraded. This is quite concerning in both cases. I've noticed this in particular with some early date Uncirculated Plats.
One of my observations when I first joined this forum is that coin values have had to increase over the years, not necessarily because of inflation but because it's the only way to maintain a market when the coins pass through so many hands over the course of a decade or two. So, the 2nd Question of the Day - Can the Modern market tolerate another cost factor before there aren't any participants left?
Sooner or later, they run out of other people's money.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>I am having a hard time seeing how stickering these moderns will "add value" overall like CAC stickers added value to classics. I guess time will tell. >>
I agree, time will tell. However, QA plans to have a couple of features that are unique versus CAC: 1) a registry set, and 2) a price guide. These are brilliant added features, IMO - particulary with the moderns. These features may play a roll in driving submissions and creating some degree of premium appreciation/stability.
Steve Palladino - Ike Group member - DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
Jmski52... Your comment regarding my Jessep remark left out NGC coins. Since NGC and PCGS (As always in my humble opinion) graded to a different standard to begin with (in some coin series at various points in time) which standard will be adopted by a company reviewing their work?
By way of example only, can anyone pull the grade through percentage rate (using 69s vs 70s) for each grading service for 1997 platinum $100 coins in PR70DCAM.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Jmski52... Your comment regarding my Jessep remark left out NGC coins. Since NGC and PCGS (As always in my humble opinion) graded to a different standard to begin with (in some coin series at various points in time) which standard will be adopted by a company reviewing their work?
That kinda emphasizes my point. Not only does this require that a collector actually have a good handle on grading for himself (a good idea in any case), but it also requires that he be able to interpret the nuances between the grading service variations and all of their aftermarket derivatives as well. It may become 2nd nature to some, but in my opinion this also does more to fragment the market and cause more confusion while the market sorts it all out.
Even without a stickering service, the existing major TPGs account for as many as 10 or 12 various label types - based on grades, recognized finishes, autographed slabs, "anniversaries" and release dates - all of which is pretty peripheral except for the actual grading and finish attributes. As such, this type of service has surpassed the point of diminishing returns for collectors in my humble opinion. I don't think that confusion is good for collecting, and most of this stuff only causes confusion.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
jmski52 ... Reasonable points. So, how does it tie into the new service? Again, I believe there may be two entirely different standards at play for a number of important modern coin series. One quick look at the pop report (if anyone can post the NGC numbers for that 1997 $100 Proof Platinum in 69 and 70 I can post the PCGS numbers) is worth a thousand words.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I believe that in some form or fashion a service of this ilk may be useful. However, it is all about long term acceptance and how the stickers are applied. To WC's point, what grading standard will be used as we all know they are not the same in all instances. That is why many series of coins trade for far less in NGC than PCGS, while in other series the spread is not that large.
It all comes down to the market accepting the skills of the new company. Also, how will they approach their own ownership of said coins... a major issue IMHO. How the key players interact with the major players in the market and the effect on Registry Sets will also be important.
To WC's point, it may actually depress the overall market if they are accepted... look at history in other similar situations...
I will be watching with interest.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
jmski52 ... Reasonable points. So, how does it tie into the new service? Again, I believe there may be two entirely different standards at play for a number of important modern coin series. One quick look at the pop report (if anyone can post the NGC numbers for that 1997 $100 Proof Platinum in 69 and 70 I can post the PCGS numbers) is worth a thousand words.
Well, it ties into the new service because the two major TPGs apparently have different grade-through rates for 70. (I'm using your terms here, so I might be missing some nuances). If the grade through rates are significantly different, then the sticker will mean something different depending on whose plastic it is applied and depending on what grade the sticker is applied to.
If a sticker were applied to a "low grade" 70 - well you wouldn't really expect that, correct? If it's applied to a "high grade" 69, it might mean something entirely different on one TPG's plastic vs. the other, right? And if the sticker is applied to a "high grade" 70 of one particular TPG, would that mean it might cross at the other?
These same considerations would also apply, only in reverse fashion - if the coin didn't sticker. Too many things to decipher, in my opinion.
Too many twists & turns in the combinations of possibilities, although it might juice the market for opinion-rendering if the estimated market price of the coin is high enough.* It becomes a real case of marginal utility in my opinion - at least for most people who might collect Moderns in something less than a totally obsessive manner or those for whom money is no object. I would surmise that those markets are smaller, rather than larger.
These are some of the reasons that I collect Modern Bullion however. There's always the bullion price as a floor, no matter who's opinion predominates.
* And if the price of the coin isn't high enough, the costs won't even begin to justify the service. The question for base metal coins will be - how much product differentiation can the market support?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
And, I will continue to offer "top 1%" coins and I hope they do well and get stickered for my customers (including rainbow stickers) who chose to submit them.
On ebay right now (but I am using a stock photo as I know the coin will not disappoint the buyer), I have a 1978-S Ike Dollar in PR70DCAM that is as DEEEEEEEP a DEEEEEP CAMEO as one could quite possibly ever reasonably expect on a "top 1%" IKe (and I know that 78-S coins come nice)! I have little doubt the coin would likely meet whatever strict standard this new company applies to monster DCAM coins. It should be interesting if that translates into higher prices for these type of coins. Mind you, I have priced the coin to begin with a little higher than if it was a "run of the mill" average DCAM specimen. I did not need a stickering service to tell me the PR70DCAM Ike I was offering was very special. But, if a service (like CAC) adds value to the coins it can obviously do well.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
First, thanks for all the comments about our new venture.
This is a business that will work well for some, while others will have no need for it. Our mission is to provide a consistent, quality, value added service. That is our sole focus.
Stickering is not new concept, it’s just new to moderns coins. We will be stickering all coins that CAC does not sticker, plus all Lincoln Cents and Mint State Ikes – which CAC currently stickers. (We are not competing with CAC)
This concept came to me almost 9 months ago, and it has been discussed in detail with a myriad of influential dealers and collectors. With their input and our discussions, the final concept was born. We already have 25+ dealers signed up and we expect to have over 200 by the time of the FUN show in January.
We have thought through many of the issues addressed in the thread. Let me address the key ones:
Is there a need for this service? Absolutely. All coins in a given grade are not created equally. Many of you can tell the difference yourself; however, a large part of the collecting community cannot. The latter are our target customers.
Can you provide a consistent, high quality product? With grading sets, clear standards, a minimum of 2 sets of eyes on every coin coupled with a finalizer that will review every single coin, we know that we can provide a high quality, value added product. Our graders average over 20 years in the industry, specifically in the modern arena.
Will you buy/sell stickered coins? There will be a buy/sell network in place for most stickered coins. That system will be completely transparent and provide liquidity based on demand, thus pricing for stickered coins. QA✓ will not engage directly in that activity. We will not be a buy/sell company, just a verification company. The buy/sell platform will be another newly formed company backed by a select group of power dealers. This network will not be available immediately.
How will you deal with spotting on modern coins? At this juncture neither major grading service guarantees spotted eagles or copper. QA✓ will not knowingly grade coins that have spots (minor spotting consistent with solid quality for the grade is OK-e.g. a few hidden flyspecks on a MS64 Lincoln). Spots can appear after coins are graded due to a variety of factors out of our control. For those reasons, we will not guarantee subsequent spotting on eagles or copper.
Any additional questions can be directed via PM or thru our website – www.qacoins.com
I wish you well and believe that if the major dealers accept your grading / sticking, it will work as there are few who can really tell a true 70. I also wish PCGS would use the 69+ for moderns.
Once they get some momentum, then we will see the effect on the sticker versus non sticker 70. It may drive a lot of coins there way, but as was noted earlier, a non sticker 70 may lose value beyond the gain for the sticker 70 (in total for the population, not by individual coin itself), i.e. total value of all non sticker 70 for a specific date plus the value of all sticker 70 coins for that date may be less than the total value of all 70 of that date today. An empirical issue to be tested shortly as my economist wife would comment.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
Take a 1997 $100 proof Platinum coin where PCGS has graded about 3.5% of all the coins they have seen since 1997 in PR70DCAM under their standard and NGC has graded (last I looked) around 50% of the coins they have seen under their standard (please correct me here with the exact % grade through rate at NGC if anyone has it). For the moment, let's use 3.5% vs. 50%. So, which grading standard is used for your system? I may ask a follow up question after you answer. Thanks.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
One has to be careful what they wish for. Nearly everyone (including myself) wanted the grading services to start designating Roosie dimes with "FB". It took years to convince them to do so. Once, done, the majority of coins that failed to achieve the FB designation essentially crashed in price (by up to about 70% in a couple years). While the coins that did receive the "FB" designation did become more valuable out of the box, throughout the years those coins also (for the most part) began drfiting downward in value and many are now worth less than what they were worth before the designation started. For a great read on the Roosie market, check out the Roosie thread at the top of the page on the Registry Forum.
You guys may recall the 1982 GW Half Dollar Commem that I bought a couple years ago from a national PCGS authorized dealer already in a PCGS-MS70 (from their retail site) that I handed back to DW at PCGS and it regraded MS68 (just as I graded it when I saw it). That coin might have traded for $15,000 - $20,000+ in a major auction had I not returned it to PCGS after paying less than $4,000 as I recall. Sure I left upwards of at least $10,000 on the table by not doing the wrong thing and may folks told me I was essentially a fool for not flipping the "hot potato" and looking the other way. I was shown examples of others making the money doing the wrong thing and never being accountable for it. Did D.W. and PCGS appreciate it? I hope so. While that was an extreme example of a bad coin in a "70" holder, bear in mind that there are myriad bad coins in plastic at every grade level, just as there are "upgrade" coins at every level up to the 69 grade.
But, I am afraid that many collectors will not be able to "handle the truth" (Jessep) when they discover that the "70" grade does indeed have a high end and a low end to that grade. In my humble opinion, it is foolhardy for the services to not use the + grade for 69 graded coins and I have been saying so for years. I can bring my 22 year old son (who I "trained") by anyone's office (ask Ian how he did at GC looking at some 70 grade material last month) and he can discern the 69 from the 70 coins (in plastic - with specks of dust or anything else in the holder) in seconds with pinpoint accuracy. The notion that graders at a top service can not tell the difference between 69s and 70s so that the 69+ grade is not possible is absurd. Again, my 22 year old son can do it with pin point accuracy and my 24 year old daughter is possibly even better! And, I say this in a non-argumentative way. For what the modern market really could use is a 69+ grade (but I better be careful what I "wish for" as it is quite possible that many of those low end 70's being graded might then fall into a 69+ holder)!
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
<< <i>It'd be interesting to compare with the comments that were thrown about regarding CAC at first. If they're able to provide a service that has the same value as CAC is largely seen to have today, why not start such a business? >>
That's a good point and I often think about how CAC was bemoaned here at first. Now...........
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Absolutely zero zilch nada interest here.......same as CAC!!
<< <i>>>>I wonder how much demand there will be for this type of service? <<<
Absolutely zero zilch nada interest here.......same as CAC!! >>
Which is why so many coins have been submitted to CAC and continue to be submitted to CAC, right? And the same reason that these pieces are fetching prices over what even solid graded non-stickered coins sell for, right?
69s are just a teeny hit or spot away from 70
So in these respects there can be pluses or stars
No?
Correct me where I've strayed...
But discerning a tiny speck from a tick or not under 10x? I won't play the 69 v 70 with that. That will be "will it come off when I open the capsule."
The only reason for this is because so many out here have gone GAGA over a sticker put on a slab by someone that doesn't know anymore about nice coins than the rest of us that have been looking at coins for 50 years or more!
I still do!
Get out!!
peacockcoins
QA may help sort out some of the questions surrounding the survival of high grade modern clad coinage that will lead to realistic valuations.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Last week someone posted a string about one's age and the definition of "modern junk." To me modern coins do not get to deserve to be called "junk" until they become massively over priced because of something as trivial as a 1 point increase in grade in the range from MS-66 to 70. This type of coin poses little interest for me.
2) Many many times I have lamented the fact that I could not send CAC my Proof Roosies or my 1960 SD proof Lincolns. Now I have an alternative.
3) I have the greatest respect for James Segos ability to do this right.
How many MS69 Washington Quarters exist from the late 60's? The 70's? The 80's? The 90's? A quick glance at the population reports show a mere 170 coins have hit MS68 between the years 1965 and 1998. Are Washington Quarters in the MS66/MS67 grade really junk unworthy of being collected in the highest grade/strike possible?
Is the bickering amongst the posters really so shallow that they totally discount the efforts of the budding numismatists that actually go through their pocket change looking for the best example that they can find?
Wow! Such encouragement.
The name is LEE!
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>1) As smoebody said, CAC was greeted with the same derision....look how successful they have been.
2) Many many times I have lamented the fact that I could not send CAC my Proof Roosies or my 1960 SD proof Lincolns. Now I have an alternative.
3) I have the greatest respect for James Segos ability to do this right. >>
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I agree with the above statements 100%.
When CAC first came around I had no need for the "Sticker" on any of my coins but then later on when I was a part of The IKE Group CAC asked some of us to send them our IKE's which they used in their initial evaluation to establish a base line for approving or rejecting IKE'S for the CAC Sticker.
Gradually I began to see the value and benefit in having the approval sticker on my coins. I started buying stickered coins,,, I have even sold coins that did not sticker and replaced them with coins that were stickered as I have a few sets that I have set a goal to have 100% "approved" coins. I have been working on this goal for several years on a couple of sets,,,,, almost there on both of them.
At first some of my rejected coins I didn't understand why they were rejected, but later after studying the rejects and comparing them to approved coins it became easier to see where I was going wrong.
I think everyone SHOULD agree that a 2nd opinion is not a bad thing. I know I feel better buying a coin that someone other than myself agrees is a better than average coin for the grade.
The value in this approval sticker will lie 100% in the competence of the people doing the approval. I know James Sego and have complete confidence in is character and grading abilities which will make this venture a success.
I look forward to the launch of this new service and plan to support it fully.
GrandAm
<< <i>I don't think anything about the service is "well put" and another thing have you ever been in a "three way gang bang"? >>
Well put that in your pipe and smoke it. Of course I've been in a three way gang bang. Let me think. There's Ebay, Pay Pal , and the IRS.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Well, for this service, it appears that James Sego has been identified as the key, or one of the keys, behind it. He is a forum member and he is also a dealer who people here know.
So, it would seem to be plausible that someone would have pinged him by now to let him know about the thread. It's also the night before Thanksgiving, so he may not have a lot of time free and be tied to a computer in order to pop in here.
However, I am sure that, if he wants to, he can come here and give an outline....or, at least, give an outline on another forum and let people know about it with a link or direction.
I am sure he would be the best one to answer about this service, rather than just speculation by others, on if he offers a buyback for stickered coins, or if the focus is only really on 69/70 grades, or anything else about it.
I mean, come on people, those that hate CAC...we know...you repeat it every post you can. Those that hate moderns....same thing...we know already.
Let's just have someone who knows James ping him and see if he will set some answers straight
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
And it's just "business", like we say in the field.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Thanks RR and BVB.
One has to be careful what they wish for. Nearly everyone (including myself) wanted the grading services to start designating Roosie dimes with "FB". It took years to convince them to do so. Once, done, the majority of coins that failed to achieve the FB designation essentially crashed in price (by up to about 70% in a couple years). While the coins that did receive the "FB" designation did become more valuable out of the box, throughout the years those coins also (for the most part) began drfiting downward in value and many are now worth less than what they were worth before the designation started. For a great read on the Roosie market, check out the Roosie thread at the top of the page on the Registry Forum.
You guys may recall the 1982 GW Half Dollar Commem that I bought a couple years ago from a national PCGS authorized dealer already in a PCGS-MS70 (from their retail site) that I handed back to DW at PCGS and it regraded MS68 (just as I graded it when I saw it). That coin might have traded for $15,000 - $20,000+ in a major auction had I not returned it to PCGS after paying less than $4,000 as I recall. Sure I left upwards of at least $10,000 on the table by not doing the wrong thing and may folks told me I was essentially a fool for not flipping the "hot potato" and looking the other way. I was shown examples of others making the money doing the wrong thing and never being accountable for it. Did D.W. and PCGS appreciate it? I hope so. While that was an extreme example of a bad coin in a "70" holder, bear in mind that there are myriad bad coins in plastic at every grade level, just as there are "upgrade" coins at every level up to the 69 grade.
But, I am afraid that many collectors will not be able to "handle the truth" (Jessep) when they discover that the "70" grade does indeed have a high end and a low end to that grade. In my humble opinion, it is foolhardy for the services to not use the + grade for 69 graded coins and I have been saying so for years. I can bring my 22 year old son (who I "trained") by anyone's office (ask Ian how he did at GC looking at some 70 grade material last month) and he can discern the 69 from the 70 coins (in plastic - with specks of dust or anything else in the holder) in seconds with pinpoint accuracy. The notion that graders at a top service can not tell the difference between 69s and 70s so that the 69+ grade is not possible is absurd. Again, my 22 year old son can do it with pin point accuracy and my 24 year old daughter is possibly even better! And, I say this in a non-argumentative way. For what the modern market really could use is a 69+ grade (but I better be careful what I "wish for" as it is quite possible that many of those low end 70's being graded might then fall into a 69+ holder)!
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin >>
Since there are high end and low end 70s, should there also be a 70+ in addition to a 69+? Having both could help sort out some grading issues at the top end.
If uncirculated coins require 18 separate grades, surely XF coins deserve more than two.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>Thanks RR and BVB.
One has to be careful what they wish for. Nearly everyone (including myself) wanted the grading services to start designating Roosie dimes with "FB". It took years to convince them to do so. Once, done, the majority of coins that failed to achieve the FB designation essentially crashed in price (by up to about 70% in a couple years). While the coins that did receive the "FB" designation did become more valuable out of the box, throughout the years those coins also (for the most part) began drfiting downward in value and many are now worth less than what they were worth before the designation started. For a great read on the Roosie market, check out the Roosie thread at the top of the page on the Registry Forum.
You guys may recall the 1982 GW Half Dollar Commem that I bought a couple years ago from a national PCGS authorized dealer already in a PCGS-MS70 (from their retail site) that I handed back to DW at PCGS and it regraded MS68 (just as I graded it when I saw it). That coin might have traded for $15,000 - $20,000+ in a major auction had I not returned it to PCGS after paying less than $4,000 as I recall. Sure I left upwards of at least $10,000 on the table by not doing the wrong thing and may folks told me I was essentially a fool for not flipping the "hot potato" and looking the other way. I was shown examples of others making the money doing the wrong thing and never being accountable for it. Did D.W. and PCGS appreciate it? I hope so. While that was an extreme example of a bad coin in a "70" holder, bear in mind that there are myriad bad coins in plastic at every grade level, just as there are "upgrade" coins at every level up to the 69 grade.
But, I am afraid that many collectors will not be able to "handle the truth" (Jessep) when they discover that the "70" grade does indeed have a high end and a low end to that grade. In my humble opinion, it is foolhardy for the services to not use the + grade for 69 graded coins and I have been saying so for years. I can bring my 22 year old son (who I "trained") by anyone's office (ask Ian how he did at GC looking at some 70 grade material last month) and he can discern the 69 from the 70 coins (in plastic - with specks of dust or anything else in the holder) in seconds with pinpoint accuracy. The notion that graders at a top service can not tell the difference between 69s and 70s so that the 69+ grade is not possible is absurd. Again, my 22 year old son can do it with pin point accuracy and my 24 year old daughter is possibly even better! And, I say this in a non-argumentative way. For what the modern market really could use is a 69+ grade (but I better be careful what I "wish for" as it is quite possible that many of those low end 70's being graded might then fall into a 69+ holder)!
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin >>
Your statement about the 70 grade is exactly what is wrong with the grade of 70. A 70 is supposed to be a perfect coin! How can there be a low end and a high end 70? I will answer it for you in my mind! The low end 70 should not have graded 70!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Lincolns Cents (1909-Present)
Jefferson Nickels (1938-Present)
Roosevelt Dimes (1946-Present)
Washington Quarters (1932-Present)
Kennedy Halfs (1964-Present)
Eisenhower Dollars
SBA Dollar
Sacagawea Dollars
Presidential Dollars
Modern Commemoratives-Clad-Silver-Gold (1982-present)
Modern Bullion
Given the absolute fact that First Strike Bullion commands premiums on the open market, I see no reason why a QA Stickered Coin would not validate that premium.
After all, all Moderns are coins, despite the feelings of certain elitists, and they are ALL collected.
The name is LEE!
James Sego built the finest set of PCGS-graded Ike $1's and he definitely has the eye for such coins. A few years ago when PCGS displayed his Ike set (along with another top registry set of Ikes)
at a Long Beach show, I viewed both sets and I liked EVERY COIN in his set.
C-N clad modern coin series are a part of our numismatic history and there are collectors interested in building top-grade sets of these series. QA could become the "CAC" of these series and add to
the confidence of potential buyers of these coins.
I will watch with great interest how this development continues.
The new stickers will provide a new opportunity for telemarketers to load up gullible buyers with common coins in fancy plastic in my opinion. I personally can't get excited over the difference between 68 and 70 in a 2013 quarter, I just can't. Sorry. There are millions of them and they're both shiny...stick 'em in the Dansco and save up for something that's rare.
Just my 2 cents, and anyway I wish success to the venture if it's well-run.
<< <i>I'm in favor of this new development and support it, especially if it is run by someone who has an eye for top-grade modern coins.
James Sego built the finest set of PCGS-graded Ike $1's and he definitely has the eye for such coins. A few years ago when PCGS displayed his Ike set (along with another top registry set of Ikes)
at a Long Beach show, I viewed both sets and I liked EVERY COIN in his set.
C-N clad modern coin series are a part of our numismatic history and there are collectors interested in building top-grade sets of these series. QA could become the "CAC" of these series and add to
the confidence of potential buyers of these coins.
I will watch with great interest how this development continues. >>
I love clad and consider it vastly underappreciated. I have a great deal of respect for James Sego and
consider him one of the most experienced and knowledgeable people in the world about clads and their
grading (especially Ikes of course).
While third party grading is important for both modern and classic coins in the current coin market this
development is likely to hasten the day that coins are graded based on their characteristics rather than
their market value. As collectors see more and more levels of preservation appear based on new cri-
teria they will be ever more inclined to demand that coins are graded in a more defining way. This is a
good interim means. Modern coins will benefit greatly by a change to grading and away from pricing be-
cause they are better suited to this kind of scrutiny.
Within the coin industry I attempted to spread my wings into the modern 69/70 market several years back. Based on my results from PCGS it was either they do not consistently apply the same standard for 70s or I was applying the wrong standards. Of my first batch, only one of the 93-S clad 50c came back a 70 and it wasn't even the best one of the bunch. I have taken a close look at many moderns. I have never seen a perfect coin with 10x magnification, not even the 1978-S $1 PCGS PR70DCAM I once owned was perfect. But isn't it only required to pass 5x magnification? In any case, even with the naked eye I can catch blemishes on almost every PCGS 70 coin. Yes, 70s are in general better than 69s. I have seen some 69s that looked better than ones I've seen as 70s. If I were a collector in the field I would go for very frosty solid 69s - you could come up with just as good of a set, if not better, than just buying 70s generically for 5-25% of the price. If this modern stickering service is successful it could close that certain window of opportunity.
For the past few years I have slowly come to expect that the services will announce at any time they will start doing 69+.
But, let assume it is J. Sego.
First, of course, his specialty area is Mint State Ike Dollars and CAC already CAC's MS Ikes. So, it sounds like this new company might be in direct competition with CAC as far as MS Ikes are concerned? Regarding proof Ike dollars, there are very, very few PR70DCAM coins (well under 1% of the graded coins). Will folks want stickers on 11 different proof Ikes in 69DCAM that sell for $299 for a complete set of all 11 coins ($27/coin on average)? I guess we will see.
Second, as I mentioned before, it will be very difficult for an active dealer to ever also sticker coins he is selling (especially moderns I would think). Consider this ... one submits (200) gold or silver or platinum ultra modern coins and gets back (50) PR70DCAM coins from the grading service. The dealer truly likes (20) for quality 70's deserving of the sticker and (30) are not sticker worthy. So, what happens to those (30) coins? Does the dealer sell them at a steep discount because they are really 69's in his book? Again, referring to my prior post, when the collectors of Roosie Dimes got PCGS to designate the coins as FB, the non FS coins essentially crashed in price and even the FB coins are, often times, worth less today than before the designation was adopted. I am having a hard time seeing how stickering these moderns will "add value" overall like CAC stickers added value to classics. I guess time will tell.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
<< <i>To this point, I have had no idea whatsoever who is behind this new company mentioned in this thread. Even now, I hear is it J. Sego through some postings here, but he has not come here and confirmed exactly who the owners of the new company are/will be (or whether he is one of them). I say this to be clear that my comments to this point have no bearing on who exactly is behind this new company. They are just general comments. >>
Don't be shy Mitch. Go to the website. Collectibles Quality Assurance Company Not everything is fully functional but the group which is starting it up is fully accounted for.
As for selling "stickered coins"?
It wasn't all too long ago that someone could try to sell a raw high grade Washington quarter from say 1978 and most folks would have put a market value on it of perhaps .75 cents? $1.00
However, today, that very same coin in an MS67 slab would bring considerably more than $1.00
I see no difference with adding a sticker. Especially since the differentiation between MS66 and MS67 "still" represents a significant dollar amount.
To me, this is simply a plus for the Modern Coin enthusiast.
The name is LEE!
Wondercoin
<< <i>I don't think anything about the service is "well put" and another thing have you ever been in a "three way gang bang"? >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I have the greatest respect for James Segos ability to do this right. >>
This is the bottom line---is the person evaluating these modern coins a true expert? If so, there is value added for those who aren't an expert. I'm guessing those who are disparaging this new company don't collect modern coins. Many moderns can have a big price jump in the next higher grade and this service is well suited for these coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Go QA!! Sock it to'em!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Do they buy coins they sticker like CAC? >>
CAC doesn't buy coins. CAC dealers do buy CAC stickered coins but only if they want them and only at their price.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
You forgot the USPS, shipping & insurance costs. If you add a primary TPG and then - yet another middleman as a secondary TPG, it's getting pretty crowded - that's 6 (six) middlemen looking to stay in business because you want to buy a nice coin. Get ready to pony up. Question of the Day - How many middlemen does it take before there's a real financial disincentive in collecting a Modern series?
Wondercoin's observation, "I am afraid that many collectors will not be able to "handle the truth" (Jessep) when they discover that the "70" grade does indeed have a high end and a low end to that grade" implies that there's about to be a major bifurcation in the Moderns market and that most of the previously-graded PCGS 70 coins (50% +) will now reside under a dark cloud of suspicion as long as they haven't been re-examined by James Sego.
What makes me crazy is that I do own some 69 coins that are noticeably worse coins than some of my other coins that failed to grade 70. I consider this to mean that some of the 69 coins were indeed overgraded, and some of my submission coins were undergraded. This is quite concerning in both cases. I've noticed this in particular with some early date Uncirculated Plats.
One of my observations when I first joined this forum is that coin values have had to increase over the years, not necessarily because of inflation but because it's the only way to maintain a market when the coins pass through so many hands over the course of a decade or two. So, the 2nd Question of the Day - Can the Modern market tolerate another cost factor before there aren't any participants left?
Sooner or later, they run out of other people's money.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I am having a hard time seeing how stickering these moderns will "add value" overall like CAC stickers added value to classics. I guess time will tell. >>
I agree, time will tell. However, QA plans to have a couple of features that are unique versus CAC: 1) a registry set, and 2) a price guide. These are brilliant added features, IMO - particulary with the moderns. These features may play a roll in driving submissions and creating some degree of premium appreciation/stability.
- Ike Group member
- DIVa (Designated Ike Varieties) Project co-lead and attributor
By way of example only, can anyone pull the grade through percentage rate (using 69s vs 70s) for each grading service for 1997 platinum $100 coins in PR70DCAM.
Wondercoin
That kinda emphasizes my point. Not only does this require that a collector actually have a good handle on grading for himself (a good idea in any case), but it also requires that he be able to interpret the nuances between the grading service variations and all of their aftermarket derivatives as well. It may become 2nd nature to some, but in my opinion this also does more to fragment the market and cause more confusion while the market sorts it all out.
Even without a stickering service, the existing major TPGs account for as many as 10 or 12 various label types - based on grades, recognized finishes, autographed slabs, "anniversaries" and release dates - all of which is pretty peripheral except for the actual grading and finish attributes. As such, this type of service has surpassed the point of diminishing returns for collectors in my humble opinion. I don't think that confusion is good for collecting, and most of this stuff only causes confusion.
I knew it would happen.
Wondercoin
It all comes down to the market accepting the skills of the new company. Also, how will they approach their own ownership of said coins... a major issue IMHO. How the key players interact with the major players in the market and the effect on Registry Sets will also be important.
To WC's point, it may actually depress the overall market if they are accepted... look at history in other similar situations...
I will be watching with interest.
Well, it ties into the new service because the two major TPGs apparently have different grade-through rates for 70. (I'm using your terms here, so I might be missing some nuances). If the grade through rates are significantly different, then the sticker will mean something different depending on whose plastic it is applied and depending on what grade the sticker is applied to.
If a sticker were applied to a "low grade" 70 - well you wouldn't really expect that, correct? If it's applied to a "high grade" 69, it might mean something entirely different on one TPG's plastic vs. the other, right? And if the sticker is applied to a "high grade" 70 of one particular TPG, would that mean it might cross at the other?
These same considerations would also apply, only in reverse fashion - if the coin didn't sticker. Too many things to decipher, in my opinion.
Too many twists & turns in the combinations of possibilities, although it might juice the market for opinion-rendering if the estimated market price of the coin is high enough.* It becomes a real case of marginal utility in my opinion - at least for most people who might collect Moderns in something less than a totally obsessive manner or those for whom money is no object. I would surmise that those markets are smaller, rather than larger.
These are some of the reasons that I collect Modern Bullion however. There's always the bullion price as a floor, no matter who's opinion predominates.
* And if the price of the coin isn't high enough, the costs won't even begin to justify the service. The question for base metal coins will be - how much product differentiation can the market support?
I knew it would happen.
And, I will continue to offer "top 1%" coins and I hope they do well and get stickered for my customers (including rainbow stickers) who chose to submit them.
On ebay right now (but I am using a stock photo as I know the coin will not disappoint the buyer), I have a 1978-S Ike Dollar in PR70DCAM that is as DEEEEEEEP a DEEEEEP CAMEO as one could quite possibly ever reasonably expect on a "top 1%" IKe (and I know that 78-S coins come nice)! I have little doubt the coin would likely meet whatever strict standard this new company applies to monster DCAM coins. It should be interesting if that translates into higher prices for these type of coins. Mind you, I have priced the coin to begin with a little higher than if it was a "run of the mill" average DCAM specimen. I did not need a stickering service to tell me the PR70DCAM Ike I was offering was very special. But, if a service (like CAC) adds value to the coins it can obviously do well.
Wondercoin
This is a business that will work well for some, while others will have no need for it. Our mission is to provide a consistent, quality, value added service. That is our sole focus.
Stickering is not new concept, it’s just new to moderns coins. We will be stickering all coins that CAC does not sticker, plus all Lincoln Cents and Mint State Ikes – which CAC currently stickers. (We are not competing with CAC)
This concept came to me almost 9 months ago, and it has been discussed in detail with a myriad of influential dealers and collectors. With their input and our discussions, the final concept was born. We already have 25+ dealers signed up and we expect to have over 200 by the time of the FUN show in January.
We have thought through many of the issues addressed in the thread. Let me address the key ones:
Is there a need for this service? Absolutely. All coins in a given grade are not created equally. Many of you can tell the difference yourself; however, a large part of the collecting community cannot. The latter are our target customers.
Can you provide a consistent, high quality product? With grading sets, clear standards, a minimum of 2 sets of eyes on every coin coupled with a finalizer that will review every single coin, we know that we can provide a high quality, value added product. Our graders average over 20 years in the industry, specifically in the modern arena.
Will you buy/sell stickered coins? There will be a buy/sell network in place for most stickered coins. That system will be completely transparent and provide liquidity based on demand, thus pricing for stickered coins. QA✓ will not engage directly in that activity. We will not be a buy/sell company, just a verification company. The buy/sell platform will be another newly formed company backed by a select group of power dealers. This network will not be available immediately.
How will you deal with spotting on modern coins? At this juncture neither major grading service guarantees spotted eagles or copper. QA✓ will not knowingly grade coins that have spots (minor spotting consistent with solid quality for the grade is OK-e.g. a few hidden flyspecks on a MS64 Lincoln). Spots can appear after coins are graded due to a variety of factors out of our control. For those reasons, we will not guarantee subsequent spotting on eagles or copper.
Any additional questions can be directed via PM or thru our website – www.qacoins.com
Thanks,
The team at QA✓
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Once they get some momentum, then we will see the effect on the sticker versus non sticker 70. It may drive a lot of coins there way, but as was noted earlier, a non sticker 70 may lose value beyond the gain for the sticker 70 (in total for the population, not by individual coin itself), i.e. total value of all non sticker 70 for a specific date plus the value of all sticker 70 coins for that date may be less than the total value of all 70 of that date today. An empirical issue to be tested shortly as my economist wife would comment.
I have a question ...
Take a 1997 $100 proof Platinum coin where PCGS has graded about 3.5% of all the coins they have seen since 1997 in PR70DCAM under their standard and NGC has graded (last I looked) around 50% of the coins they have seen under their standard (please correct me here with the exact % grade through rate at NGC if anyone has it). For the moment, let's use 3.5% vs. 50%. So, which grading standard is used for your system? I may ask a follow up question after you answer. Thanks.
Wondercoin