incorrect grading of raw coins is not near a significant fraud on our hobby. Counterfeiting has been active for 2 centuries and it still is the most significant fraud that needs to be dealt with.
When I assign grades to my own coins I prefer to use letter grades like VF and then add a + or - depending how it sits within the grade. The grade is always technical, the + or - is more an expression of eye appeal.
<< <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>
Yes, absolutely. And it should include jail time. In addition, we would need to implement a useable enforcement mechanism, such as the grading police so that we can deal with violators of these laws. I am still unsure whether we should arm those police, but what the heck, if they can't protect themselves, what good are they. So, I say arm them. Perhaps we should set up a special grading court system with judges who are familiar with numismatics, since, after all, what good is a judge who doesn't know what he is doing.
I got an irate PM from a poster threatening to REPORT me for an attitude toward the president. I can only ..guess.. it was from my post with the picture of .... Obama-CARE
Dangerous ground hereabouts.
My original "take" on this thread was that there was a LARGE dollop of satire in the start of the whole topic.
I numerically grade my own coins for my own reference later when I decide to sell them. I make comments about the nature of the flaws that I'm seeing on my own 2x2 labels, based on multiple grading guides, and using some of their terminology. I like to see how my estimates compare with PCGS when I do send them in for grading. I imagine that most people do something similar.
Regarding the OP question, what's the difference between using terms like VF, AU+, MS, Superb, Gem or Choice instead of VF-20, AU-58, or MS-64 when it's your own opinion and you state it as such? It's not much different than saying "this is MS-64, but it's nice for the grade".
What's the true grade? Price sheets are always out-of-date, and grading scales are always prone to slippage. I tend to agree with some who say "the grade is $425.00".
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>How could a grading firm apply grades then? >>
Because they legitimize it by putting the graded coin into a slab with a certificate/label/insert instead of letting it remain raw. That being said it would be difficult to enforce since opinions are subject to change and the grade is an opinion and not an indisputable fact.
I remember back in the late 70's (?) when some guy wrote a letter to the editor in one of the coin publications suggesting that all U.S. coins should have a series of concentric, numbered rings on their reverses so that collectors could grade their coins by simply looking to see which rings were worn away. I am not entirely sure that he was kidding!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>I remember back in the late 70's (?) when some guy wrote a letter to the editor in one of the coin publications suggesting that all U.S. coins should have a series of concentric, numbered rings on their reverses so that collectors could grade their coins by simply looking to see which rings were worn away. I am not entirely sure that he was kidding!
>>
Did they get the idea from looking at the back of slugs?
I think any law like this would be quickly struck down by the courts. For starters it would violate our first amendment rights to free speech. Second it would violate our fifth amendment rights to due process.
It reminds me of a law the MN legislature passed a number of years ago to ban the sale of video games with an industry rating a Mature (or whatever the level was) to anyone under 18. Within 60 days the Federal courts had put an injunction on the enforcement of the law. They ultimately ruled the law unconstitutional on 1st and 5th amendment grounds. The first amendment grounds are probably obvious to everyone. The interesting part of the ruling was on the 5th amendment. The court said that the legislature cannot pass a law that uses a non-government entity for the rating, because an individual has no process by which to object. As opposed to if the government did the rating you could voted the bums out, if you didn't like the rating.
In other words, the only way to get a law like this that did not violate the 5th amendment, would be to have a government grading company. Anyone in favor of a Government grading company? You could then call your congressman if you didn't like your grade. How about asking the President to pardon your coin for that really old cleaning. Could be fun.
n other words, the only way to get a law like this that did not violate the 5th amendment, would be to have a government grading company. Anyone in favor of a Government grading company? You could then call your congressman if you didn't like your grade. How about asking the President to pardon your coin for that really old cleaning. Could be fun.
Don't be silly. The President is not going to pardon coins.
Otherwise, sounds good!
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
During my 4+ decades as a coin collector, I have met a number of small dealers who refused to assign grades to what they had for sale. They would say something like: "I grade this coin xxxx dollars." Were all of them honest? NO
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>
If you want to prevent fraud, you might need records in this day and age. What about a law to prevent the use of numeric grades unless the coin has a TrueView photo and Secure Plus record?
I've got a few coins in my Coin World slabs that I call MS70 or PF70 complete with label indicating my opinion.Nobody should be able to tell me that I can't do this.These are coins that would be foolish to submit to any grading service because of high fees and mailing cost.
Does anyone own the copyright on the numbers from 0 to 70? If so,when comes time to sell,to avoid actual infringement or the perception of copyright infringement,I may need to use the designation MS71 or PF71 for my most perfect coins.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
What I put on my self slabs is my right (These are usually coins not worth the slab fee - the slabs simply have my business name as I don't claim to be a TPG). Numerical grades are an opinion, not an absolute.
However, any self slabbed coins I have in my case at a show or online I prefer non numerical descriptive grades to keep it simple: example - VF, XF, AU, BU, CH BU (MS63 and above), Gem BU (MS65 and above), Gem PF DC or just simply Gem PF (PF 65 and above). I set the numerically graded self slabs aside for consideration for TPG submission. I do not seal the self slabs (they simply snap together) so any change to the insert is easy.
Grading is subjective and can be fluid based on market conditions in addition to perceptions like market grading vs technical grading.
<< <i>No. I think an executive order would be the way to go. >>
That's the answer. Why not??? >>
agreed far better way to handle a non problem.
I do prefer the great bureaucracy and burdensome laws and insipid regulation and many more fees and taxes its far better and keeps so many people working.
Comments
<< <i>There has never been a law written that has prevented transgression. Cheers, RickO >>
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
How about a law prohibiting numeric grades for slabbed coins as well?
<< <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>
Yes, absolutely. And it should include jail time. In addition, we would need to implement a useable enforcement mechanism, such as the grading police so that we can deal with violators of these laws. I am still unsure whether we should arm those police, but what the heck, if they can't protect themselves, what good are they. So, I say arm them. Perhaps we should set up a special grading court system with judges who are familiar with numismatics, since, after all, what good is a judge who doesn't know what he is doing.
Monty Python comes to mind.
Tom
I got an irate PM from a poster threatening to REPORT me for an attitude toward the president.
I can only ..guess.. it was from my post with the picture of .... Obama-CARE
Dangerous ground hereabouts.
My original "take" on this thread was that there was a LARGE dollop of satire in the start of the whole topic.
wow
Regarding the OP question, what's the difference between using terms like VF, AU+, MS, Superb, Gem or Choice instead of VF-20, AU-58, or MS-64 when it's your own opinion and you state it as such? It's not much different than saying "this is MS-64, but it's nice for the grade".
What's the true grade? Price sheets are always out-of-date, and grading scales are always prone to slippage. I tend to agree with some who say "the grade is $425.00".
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>How could a grading firm apply grades then? >>
Because they legitimize it by putting the graded coin into a slab with a certificate/label/insert instead of letting it remain raw. That being said it would be difficult to enforce since opinions are subject to change and the grade is an opinion and not an indisputable fact.
coin investor confusion.
The grade should be stamped into the coin itself.
Should be a cushy job with a big title.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>An actual law set by the Government? You can't be serious. >>
<< <i>I remember back in the late 70's (?) when some guy wrote a letter to the editor in one of the coin publications suggesting that all U.S. coins should have a series of concentric, numbered rings on their reverses so that collectors could grade their coins by simply looking to see which rings were worn away. I am not entirely sure that he was kidding!
Did they get the idea from looking at the back of slugs?
Of course we could have the empty suit at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. appoint a Coin Czar to smooth things over.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>
No.
Enacting a law preventing government controls over hobbies might be a good one though.
The name is LEE!
It reminds me of a law the MN legislature passed a number of years ago to ban the sale of video games with an industry rating a Mature (or whatever the level was) to anyone under 18. Within 60 days the Federal courts had put an injunction on the enforcement of the law. They ultimately ruled the law unconstitutional on 1st and 5th amendment grounds. The first amendment grounds are probably obvious to everyone. The interesting part of the ruling was on the 5th amendment. The court said that the legislature cannot pass a law that uses a non-government entity for the rating, because an individual has no process by which to object. As opposed to if the government did the rating you could voted the bums out, if you didn't like the rating.
In other words, the only way to get a law like this that did not violate the 5th amendment, would be to have a government grading company. Anyone in favor of a Government grading company? You could then call your congressman if you didn't like your grade. How about asking the President to pardon your coin for that really old cleaning. Could be fun.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
lets pass a law and add a tax and even allow a cooperate monopoly in to save us the stupid consumer
from ourselves.
<< <i>An actual law set by the Government? You can't be serious. >>
Isn't government in our lives enough already ?
<< <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>
No. Government regulation will do little good in this field. Look at the mess in Minnesota.
On another note, since there is no agreed upon grading scale; however, do you propose regulating the grading of raw coins at all?
Don't be silly. The President is not going to pardon coins.
Otherwise, sounds good!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? >>
No, but I think one should be enacted to prohibit the playing of Christmas music before Thanksgiving.
<< <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>
If you want to prevent fraud, you might need records in this day and age. What about a law to prevent the use of numeric grades unless the coin has a TrueView photo and Secure Plus record?
Does anyone own the copyright on the numbers from 0 to 70? If so,when comes time to sell,to avoid actual infringement or the perception of copyright infringement,I may need to use the designation MS71 or PF71 for my most perfect coins.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
What I put on my self slabs is my right (These are usually coins not worth the slab fee - the slabs simply have my business name as I don't claim to be a TPG).
Numerical grades are an opinion, not an absolute.
However, any self slabbed coins I have in my case at a show or online I prefer non numerical descriptive grades to keep it simple: example - VF, XF, AU, BU, CH BU (MS63 and above), Gem BU (MS65 and above), Gem PF DC or just simply Gem PF (PF 65 and above). I set the numerically graded self slabs aside for consideration for TPG submission. I do not seal the self slabs (they simply snap together) so any change to the insert is easy.
Grading is subjective and can be fluid based on market conditions in addition to perceptions like market grading vs technical grading.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>No. I think an executive order would be the way to go. >>
That's the answer. Why not???
<< <i>That Bill has already been passed.
Love it, how true.
<< <i>
<< <i>No. I think an executive order would be the way to go. >>
That's the answer. Why not??? >>
agreed far better way to handle a non problem.
I do prefer the great bureaucracy and burdensome laws and insipid regulation and many more fees and taxes its far better and keeps so many people working.