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Should toning, AT or NT be disregarded when grading?
MGLICKER
Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭
Essentially the grader is considering a post mint (usually) embellishment.
Whether it was intentionally done is perhaps a moot point.
Why not just grade the coin itself as you would an old gold piece with a bit of crust?
If the toning is of such a nature that the coins degree of preservation cannot accurately be assessed, than a body bag or genuine holder would be in order.
Just thinking out loud. Input appreciated.
Whether it was intentionally done is perhaps a moot point.
Why not just grade the coin itself as you would an old gold piece with a bit of crust?
If the toning is of such a nature that the coins degree of preservation cannot accurately be assessed, than a body bag or genuine holder would be in order.
Just thinking out loud. Input appreciated.
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It would definitely take away a doctor's incentive to add color. But I suppose the same could be said about putty, lasering, cameo contrast, ect. All of which are post mint enhancements.
<< <i>Perhaps you are correct but we are too far along now to change how toners are graded >>
Good point!
Grade the coin by detail left and marks.....leave the eye appeal to the buyers and sellers!!!!!!!!!!!
Mess with it, and someone will be unhappy a different direction. There's no pleasing everyone.....
If you don't like it, you can always start your own TPG service.
insurance. Collectors of toned coins need this insurance. It takes years if not decades to learn all of the nuances of a series, let alone the AT/NT toning process.
All of this takes a lot of the risk out of buying and selling coins. Hall recognized the need for this in the 90's, and has been rewarded with a successful business plan. I think TPG's have it right and have
helped to preserve the coin collecting hobby. JMHO
All of it.
For example, a distracting mark in a prime focal area is no different than ugly toning. Each detracts from the appeal of the coin.
Grading is an art. It is not a science.
And a grade should account for all of the attributes of a coin.
So my answer is no.
No, toning should not be disregarded.
<< <i>Eye appeal is a major aspect of grading. There are toned coins with fantastic eye appeal and hence high grades and others with unattractive toning deserving of a lower grade.
No, toning should not be disregarded. >>
This, however I do not necessarily agree with this idea, it's how things are done.
Eye appeal shouldn't be a part of it.
<< <i>Level of detail, marks, strike, toning...all of it is subjective.
All of it.
For example, a distracting mark in a prime focal area is no different than ugly toning. Each detracts from the appeal of the coin.
Grading is an art. It is not a science.
And a grade should account for all of the attributes of a coin.
So my answer is no. >>
All grades below 70 are net grades. I find the "slab problem-free" vs. "bodybag/genuine" thing an artificial binary line that should be a lot blurrier than it is.
I liked what the old ANACS did with a detail grade and a net grade for coins with "problems" that accounted for the severity of the problem with an expert opinion
the idea of "leaving it to the seller and buyer" negates the whole point of a slab grade being an expert appraisal of the value of the coin that conveys with the sale
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
NT........should add a point if attractive.....award the upper grade on a split grade for original skin...detract if surface preservation is jeopardized
grade assessment should always contain the patina or original skin aspect
it gets tricky with early "brushed" copper versus natural
i still think too many coins get extra multiple points for luster when they lack details of a choice full strike
as to me those choice full strikes were first set up pieces with fresh dies and the coiner was adjusting the press just right
many of those luster gems are when the press was in full swing or at speed with dies no longer crisp and new
my lil pet peeve there...will crisp sharp full strike ever get it's true respect?
<< <i>Eye appeal is a major aspect of grading. There are toned coins with fantastic eye appeal and hence high grades and others with unattractive toning deserving of a lower grade.
No, toning should not be disregarded. >>
The major grading services do "market grading" which includes eye appeal as a grade determining factor and is essentially pricing the coin. Really nice attractive toning will add a point or two to the technical grade. Like it or not, that's the way it's done. Technical grading is a thing of the past.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Luster, or lack thereof, should also not factor into a technical grade, but it does as well.
Personally, I prefer grade ranges: VF, AU, Gem BU, etc, to technical grades, because much of the time I really can't tell the difference anyway between 65 and 66, 50 and 53, 30 and 35, etc.
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody and be perfect !
I vote no.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>A coin's strike should not factor into the technical grade, but it certainly does.
Luster, or lack thereof, should also not factor into a technical grade, but it does as well. >>
Luster and strike have always been a grading factor in determining both the technical grade and the market grade.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Toning does affect the value of a coin in the marketplace. Since grading is used as a means to facilitate the establishment of value in a numismatic transaction, it needs to reflect all of the attributes of a coin, including toning (appealing or unappealing or neutral). Having said this, the current market grading methods used by the TPGs do not necessarily lead to grades that adequately reflect the values of some toned coins. Wildly colored Morgans typically sell for many times what their nominal grades would suggest, for example.
I vote no. >>
A common Morgan in MS64 is worth $80. With wild toning it might be worth $1000. Grade would have to jump to MS67 to reflect that value.
AT, NT, Putty, glue, fingernail polish, boogers, and other crud should just be ignored. It's gross. Those things discount a coin to nothingness with the exception of the naturally toned.
Obviously all the things added to a coin or "done" to a coin over time enhances or detracts.
However, why even grade it ? Grading is grading. A damaged , screwed up coin will always be damaged and screwed up….and basically the only toning that matters is the one that has proven to be "eye appealing" over time, which is a minute component in the grading game.
P.S. I loathe "SHOULD"
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody and be perfect !
Grade should be based exactly on how much wear there is and how many marks on UNCS.......Period.
That is the grade. Eye appeal is a whole different ballgame and should be left to the buyer. If a coin is graded XF45, which is what you want, but you don't like the toning or lack of toning........Don't buy it!
Grade should be based exactly on how much wear there is and how many marks on UNCS.......Period.
That is the grade. Eye appeal is a whole different ballgame and should be left to the buyer.
Dimeman,
You are mistaken if you really believe that grading UNCS is solely based on "how many marks". Much more than that in many series.
<< <i>RE:
Grade should be based exactly on how much wear there is and how many marks on UNCS.......Period.
That is the grade. Eye appeal is a whole different ballgame and should be left to the buyer.
Dimeman,
You are mistaken if you really believe that grading UNCS is solely based on "how many marks". Much more than that in many series. >>
In the case of an uncirculated coin, luster should be a more important consideration than marks.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Should toning, AT or NT be disregarded when grading? >>
If this was done, the coin likely couldn't be covered under the grade guarantee. Given the propensity of AT changing the coin for the negative, it wouldn't be financially prudent to guarantee coins that could be AT (or NT as proposed).
Luster makes a coin BU vs unc, but toning also has a key role in eye appeal.
Putty is NOT a post-mint "enhancement" ... Don't cast aside all our values lest we fall back into the dark ages.
If you don't like market grading, don't pay for it.
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Between gradeflation, and the changing/arbitrary standards of "grading", I have more and more thought that maybe I should personally buy coins for myself that I will then crack out so that I really am buying the coin and not the holder. Ask yourself, when you buy a coin are you so sure of it's aesthetic quality, state of preservation, originality, authenticity, etc, that you would buy it and crack it out without "worrying" that were you to send it back in for "grading" it would "slab" as the same grade? If not, you shouldn't buy the coin. Don't get me wrong, I am glad grading services are there, and I use them all the time, but I think collectors place way too much value on what their coins "grade", and not enough on what the coin looks like.
<< <i>A common Morgan in MS64 is worth $80. With wild toning it might be worth $1000. Grade would have to jump to MS67 to reflect that value. >>
The price of a coin is not married to the grade, as you suggest. This is a completely different issue than your OP, IMHO. I submit to you that a wildly-toned MS64 and a plainly-toned MS67 can and should both sell for $1,000 if that is what people are willing to pay for them. Market grading includes eye appeal, toning and luster in the grading process but that doesn't mean toning will trump more important characteristics such as nicks, cuts, dings, scratches, hairlines, etc. etc.
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