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coin22lover · September 24, 2014 4:46AM

.

Boosibri · September 24, 2014 4:51AM

A critically wounded 1873 No Arrows Open 3 half?

coin22lover · September 24, 2014 4:53AM

Not as bad looking as you probably think from the pictures. But, yeah...

NumisOxide · September 24, 2014 5:03AM

Looks like one.

Baley · September 24, 2014 5:09AM

Looks like some one used it a dozen or 15 times as a base for cutting something, so the knife didn't damage the table, for example a cigar tip.

rhedden · September 24, 2014 5:36AM

I think it's a proof with some rub and a few hairlines on the portrait.

What you should really look for is a coin that had the Arrows tooled off around the date, and was retoned to hide the work. When a legit collector or dealer gets burned by purchasing such a deceptive piece, they will sometimes deface it so that it can't fool anyone else. I'd be concerned.

coin22lover · September 24, 2014 5:42AM

<< I think it's a proof with some rub and a few hairlines on the portrait.

What you should really look for is a coin that had the Arrows tooled off around the date, and was retoned to hide the work. When a legit collector or dealer gets burned by purchasing such a deceptive piece, they will sometimes deface it so that it can't fool anyone else. I'd be concerned. >>

Interesting...does anyone know if you can tell arrows vs no arrows by the die pair?

COALPORTER · September 24, 2014 7:11AM

<< 

<< I think it's a proof with some rub and a few hairlines on the portrait.

What you should really look for is a coin that had the Arrows tooled off around the date, and was retoned to hide the work. When a legit collector or dealer gets burned by purchasing such a deceptive piece, they will sometimes deface it so that it can't fool anyone else. I'd be concerned. >>

Interesting...does anyone know if you can tell arrows vs no arrows by the die pair? >>

Cant you weigh it ?

coin22lover · September 24, 2014 7:30AM

What good would weighing it do?

yosclimber · September 24, 2014 7:31AM

<< Interesting...does anyone know if you can tell arrows vs no arrows by the die pair? >>

There are some photos of the date area for the different obverses at:
http://blog.davidlawrence.com/index.php/seated-half-dollars-1873/

lkeigwin · September 24, 2014 7:58AM

<< What good would weighing it do? >>

They're a tenth of a gram different?
Lance.

LindeDad · September 24, 2014 8:00AM

<< What good would weighing it do? >>

12.44=good 1873 before weight change
12.50=<-1873-> true weight little less with arrows removed.

The weight change was reason for added arrows.

coin22lover · September 24, 2014 8:08AM

<< 

<< What good would weighing it do? >>

The weight change was reason for added arrows. >>

Well, this part I did know, but it seems like in this grade (and IF the arrows were scratched off somehow) wouldn't it simply lose the weight that was added in the first place? I guess that's why I asked what good it would do. I suppose I could take a trip to a LCS to get it weighed. Does every legitimate open 2 no arrows go through this line of questioning or is there something oddball about mine?

LindeDad · September 24, 2014 8:13AM

They have been rare for a long time. Weight with a good scale is just a step in authenticating.

SAM5969 · September 24, 2014 9:06AM

You have to account for circulation wear . .. the 1/10 g difference variable / margin for error is too small for weight check IMO with a coin circulated to that level of wear

coin22lover · September 24, 2014 9:34AM

<< You have to account for circulation wear . .. the 1/10 g difference variable / margin for error is too small for weight check IMO with a coin circulated to that level of wear >>

That's basically what I was getting at.

coin22lover · September 25, 2014 3:15AM

bump

BustHalfBrian · September 25, 2014 7:10AM

Call me a pessimist, but I think I see some discoloration (evidence of tooling) where a 'CC' mintmark would be.

But for all I know that could have happened during what appears to have been a long circulation life.

You should really have it looked over by an expert on Seated halves. Authenticating something like this through photos isn't possible, unless there is some key diagnostic that would confirm it is the real deal.

coin22lover · September 25, 2014 7:44AM

Why is my coin so suspicious? lol. Where are the experts?

MsMorrisine · September 25, 2014 7:54AM

no one knows what you think it is.

nice retone job if it is one as it looks original where the arrows would be.

the subject line could be more descriptive.

are the numerals in the date supposed to be that off kilter?

lkeigwin · September 25, 2014 8:40AM

<< Why is my coin so suspicious? lol. Where are the experts? >>

At PCGS waiting for your submission.
Lance.

Wabbit2313 · September 25, 2014 8:42AM

<< 

<< Why is my coin so suspicious? lol. Where are the experts? >>

At PCGS waiting for your submission.
Lance. >>

coin22lover · September 25, 2014 8:52AM

<< 

<< Why is my coin so suspicious? lol. Where are the experts? >>

At PCGS waiting for your submission.
Lance. >>

But that makes too much sense

yosclimber · September 25, 2014 9:01AM

If you extend a line on the right side of the 1 up to the shield lines, it appears to meet
the left side of the group of lines which are just right of the shield tip.
(But it is somewhat unclear due to wear).
Similarly, if you extend the line down, it meets the center of a dentil.

The "dentil" metric appears to rule out WB-106, WB-107, and WB-108, where the line would be between dentils.
WB-101 matches your coin, as the line meets the center of a dentil.

The online WB photos for the 1873-CC are not large enough for me to use this metric to check them.
Same story for the 1873-S, and I can't even tell if is supposed to be an open 3.

coindeuce · September 25, 2014 9:10AM

Bill Bugert is registered here, IIRC. If I could remember his user ID, I could recommend a PM to give him a heads up.
Meanwhile, according to Wiley-Bugert there are only 2 head dies for N/A Open 3 WB-101 and the head die most frequently seen of the WB-101 has many die lumps on Liberty. Given the PM damage and wear here, the task of observing qualifying die lumps may be fruitless, but still necessary. I believe I see two die lumps adjacent to Liberty's left (viewing right) forearm.

BustHalfBrian · September 25, 2014 9:12AM

edit

MsMorrisine · September 25, 2014 9:17AM

fabricated 7 ?

coin22lover · September 25, 2014 9:34AM

<< Bill Bugert is registered here, IIRC. If I could remember his user ID, I could recommend a PM to give him a heads up.
Meanwhile, according to Wiley-Bugert there are only 2 head dies for N/A Open 3 WB-101 and the head die most frequently seen of the WB-101 has many die lumps on Liberty. Given the PM damage and wear here, the task of observing qualifying die lumps may be fruitless, but still necessary. I believe I see two die lumps adjacent to Liberty's left (viewing right) forearm. >>

Do you know if there's a good picture of the die lumps out there before I go searching Heritage and such?

yosclimber · September 25, 2014 9:35AM

<< fabricated 7 ? >>

That seems unlikely, as a 6 or 8 would not fit there.
Might be easier to modify a Closed 3 to make it look Open?

coindeuce · September 25, 2014 9:36AM

"Do you know if there's a good picture of the die lumps out there before I go searching Heritage and such?"

CoinFacts ?

coin22lover · September 25, 2014 9:45AM

Die lumps can be tricky if you don't know exactly what you're looking for. A quick scan with a loupe doesn't reveal much, but then again...

Were you talking about the empty space between the forearm and the pole?

coindeuce · September 25, 2014 10:13AM

"Were you talking about the empty space between the forearm and the pole?"

Nope. I detected what appears to be one on the pole, above Liberty's elbow, and one to the left of that. Very hard to interpret images of a well worn coin.

Halfhound · September 25, 2014 10:21AM

I would at least check the average diameter. The CC and S run larger according to what is published. If you are down under 1.200 that would be good.

lostincoins · September 25, 2014 10:33AM

The date placement, the shape of the 1 and the 3 and the slight wonkyness of the entire date all match the WB-101. This coin is going to be harder to see the other markers because of the ware and the significant PMD. If you take the image of the WB-101 provided by yosclimber and lay it over your coin you will see that it matches up very well with the overall shape of the numbers. As to your question about why your coin is so suspect, it is because it is well circulate, has a large amount of PMD and well thaey don't show up very often like this.

ebaybuyer · September 25, 2014 10:37AM

+1 lostincoins, it looks like a match for the date placement (as compared to the denticles below the date) if you think perhaps its a removed CC compare the reeding to a P and CC coin of the same year, I believe the collars were different at each mint.

ebaybuyer · September 25, 2014 10:40AM

don't rely on a TPG to attribute varieties, date, mm and denomination seem to be difficult enough

Halfhound · September 25, 2014 10:42AM

Reed count is the same I believe.

coin22lover · September 25, 2014 10:49AM

I guess it's looking pretty good, then. Worth a trip to the plastic factory. By the way, I wish all of you could see it in hand. The camera and natural sunlight REALLY exaggerate the scratches. Under normal room light, you hardly even notice them until you tilt it toward a lamp.

ebaybuyer · September 26, 2014 12:10PM

I dunno coin, I believe even mr mgoo could see those scratches ! good score either way for a bone

MsMorrisine · September 26, 2014 12:14PM

Best possible outcome is a details holder

coin22lover · September 26, 2014 12:39PM

<< Best possible outcome is a details holder >>

Of course. Only the authenticity of the variety is the point.

lostincoins · September 26, 2014 12:43PM

Look at Heritage as I think they sold an NGC PO1 in 2012 and you could compare condition to yours. I would send it as it looks good to go. Would rarity play a part in getting this into a nondetails holder at a reduced grade?

lkeigwin · September 26, 2014 12:47PM

<< Would rarity play a part in getting this into a nondetails holder at a reduced grade? >>

Ah...no.
Lance.

coindeuce · September 26, 2014 1:09PM

Tried several times to get this authenticated by our host. Got "No decision".

It is a 1794 FH half dollar.

sybildvane · September 28, 2014 1:11PM

Awesome coin! As mentioned date placement looks solid WB-101, small die lump under armpit appears in place also. Key worthy of series to be built around

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