dbcion, now that is speculation! What proof of that $100k do you have that went to the paying of those bussed in people? Pressure will have to be applied by a legal source to get what exactly went down. Start with one and you will find the others. The whole thing should be very EDUCATIONAL!
Come to think about it. The Mint should make a statement. The Mint was the one that has been under minded...Their attorney's may have something to say.
<< <i>Come to think about it. The Mint should make a statement. The Mint was the one that has been under minded...Their attorney's may have something to say. >>
FLipton was quoted in the video as saying the coins were worth a lot of money. Wonder why the mint sold em so cheap then.
Why did the U. S. Mint, A.N.A. and the grading services devise this scheme in the first place? They all realized a financial gain by doing so. The dealers who got involved in all of this also saw a financial gain and took advantage of the business opportunity. So now the dealers are the bad guys, and getting the brunt of the complaints, while the people who devised this whole mess sit back and refuse to accept any of the blame when it all blew up in their faces. NO ACCOUNTABILITY. Anyone who thinks the dealers should be blamed, sanctioned, or disciplined have sure got it backwards. Had those entities that invented this scheme not done so, none of this would have happened.
No, they are all guilty of taking advantage for financial gain. the Mint said that they would mint the coin endlessly. They also stated one coin per person per day. No they were under minded and a scheme was Born.....Lucky thing is that no one was hurt! ....In fact it is quite amazing that no one was. INTENT is a strong word....it is premeditated...Inciting a riot could of caused death, robbery...just so much to go on.
While you are correct that the mint, ANA and the TPG's share some blame, the few dealers who abused and bent the rules to the breaking point are the major offenders. Picture this; everything the same except no more than 5 line standers per dealer. It still would have been quite an experience but no where near the chaos the went down. Would the high bounties paid for the coins have happened? Would the $100,000 sale taken place? Would 2 or 3 dealers be in control of the majority of the coins? Would the mint have suspended sales early?
Lots of blame being cast around, but very little towards the actual source of the problem.
The fact is, profit can only come from one place: the CUSTOMER.
Lots of entities acted in an untoward manner in all of this. However, if one set of dealers wouldn't have tried to cash in, others would have seen the potential for profit and taken their place. If PCGS wouldn't have created ANA-show labels, NGC would have had the market cornered. It's hard to blame the grading services for creating a product that the CUSTOMER is willing to pay for.
None of it would have been possible without the CUSTOMER paying money for these labels. Without the CUSTOMER paying extra for a label, the dealers would just be sitting on a big steaming pile of overpriced, ANA-labeled gold bullion that they paid too much for.
The behavior of the US Mint, the ANA, the grading services, and the dealers, while problematic, is just a symptom of the problem. The underlying problem is the CUSTOMER who is willing to pay extra for a label. As long as that CUSTOMER exists, entities will try to cash in.
<< <i>Lots of blame being cast around, but very little towards the actual source of the problem.
The fact is, profit can only come from one place: the CUSTOMER.
Lots of entities acted in an untoward manner in all of this. However, if one set of dealers wouldn't have tried to cash in, others would have seen the potential for profit and taken their place. If PCGS wouldn't have created ANA-show labels, NGC would have had the market cornered. It's hard to blame the grading services for creating a product that the CUSTOMER is willing to pay for.
None of it would have been possible without the CUSTOMER paying money for these labels. Without the CUSTOMER paying extra for a label, the dealers would just be sitting on a big steaming pile of overpriced, ANA-labeled gold bullion that they paid too much for.
The behavior of the US Mint, the ANA, the grading services, and the dealers, while problematic, is just a symptom of the problem. The underlying problem is the CUSTOMER who is willing to pay extra for a label. As long as that CUSTOMER exists, entities will try to cash in. >>
Sounds like blaming the victim for walking outside at night and getting robbed.. ... Some reason some here want to divert attention from the Mint and ANA for their fiasco of their own making...more spinning then in a wash machine .Thank God from many dealers here , there is a customer willing to buy
"Professional" meaning someone who "knows" how to make money (a killing) in the retail coin industry. I know how to make money. Buy Low Sell High! Its a simple concept.
However, I do not have a crowd of customers that "trusts" me when I say that the first Kennedy Gold Coin Sold is going to be worth a freaking fortune someday and $100,000 is an absolute steal! (Provided that the coin actually sold for that amount since the two dealers involved are already guilty of "creating a false market" or a "false sense of the market" by hiring actors to play the parts of enthusiastic coin collectors.)
As a side note, I would personally have a problem selling one of the Kennedy "labels" for $5,000 while telling or convincing my "customer" that it is a reasonable price for a coin (label) which is sure to climb in value over the years.
I applaud Rich Uhrich for his honesty and integrity and if I were really a Professional Numismatist..........I would distance myself from the PNG who, at this point in time, have as much credibility as the ANA Board of Directors.
Sorry if you feel otherwise.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Yes indeed thanks for speaking out rich ,one of a few . For those that just smirk about the gold kennedys being an isolated issue.. my dealer friend made a lot of money from the gold Kennedys at the Show... so with his big profits from the gold kennedys , he was less inclined to bargain for a selling price lower on the coins he bought with him to the show ,and ,lowered his buy prices on coins offered to him
This was as good as it gets for numismatic drama. The person instrumental in shutting down sales deserves the kudos. I can understand the uneasiness many dealers must have "felt" with the "added" crowd.
<< <i>One Coin Program that aired, said they did sell the coin for $100K. One night last week they had it on the show, or were suppose to have it on the air according to the announcer. I did not view it. >>
Maybe the dealer asked a lot less than $100k and the buyer said "no, it has to be $100k...it needs to the most expensive gold Kennedy ever sold". Lance.
In order for any thing to be done I feel the Mint needs to make a statement. When they do, it will give some directive to whom ever will govern the miss doings. I would not want to be in their shoes.
<< <i>Don't you know the public or the market dictated the price on those entombed slabs with funny labels. >>
Right!
Why I can envision a fella running up to a coin dealer and shouting "By God! I'll give you $6,000 for that thing!". "$7,000.00!!!!"
I just don't think so.
You see, the Coin Dealers SET THE PRICES. The public, feeling that "Hey, he's a professional so he KNOWS what these are worth", buys the coin/label.
It's not like these go through an auction or anything. Dealers set prices, people buy at those prices.
How many of the actual sales were "Dealer to Dealer?"
As for Coin Vault, HSN and the other TV Hucksters? We already know the intelligence level of the folks that buy their stuff and I'm sure MANY B&M Coin Dealers remind those folks of their idiosy when it comes time to sell. Thank God for Coin Dealers!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Remember, no proof that this $100,000 sale took place. Knowing the dealer's propensity to hype makes the figure hard to believe. The sale probably took place. The sequence of events is not known. And...the buyer, described a a regular customer of the dealers company, has not come forward. Then again I'm not sure how believable his story would be either. >>
I wonder what the outcome of all of this would have been if the sales were to have continued. Or was the cancelation of the sales a brilliant plan on someone's part to create hype and drama (and money). It was talked about for months how much madness there would be at the ANA in regards to people lining up to make a purchase. How can any one person in charge be so close minded not to see foresee this happening. Heck, I'm a no nothing and I knew what to expect. So in my opinion, the real problem is whoever authorized the US Mint to sell that coin at the show is the one that needs to be sitting in the seat. And if it was a US Mint employee that OK'd his entity to sell the coin,than he needs to be in the seat. The "knucklehead" seat.
That video was very amusing! Watching the ANA president, Lipton and Hendrickson talking about the coins was very similar IMO to watching Illinois politicians give speeches. Makes you wonder how they can even talk with a straight face.
I've always considered the ANA, the US Mints yearly collector coin issues, and the PNG all basically a joke and a detriment / embarrassment to the hobby, and now my opinion of all three has just lowered slightly. And the 'top tier' grading services playing along as enablers to this nonsense is also deplorable IMO.
But I'll tell you. All of this foolishness is really turning me off to the modern series. I used keep up my complete set of modern commemorative coins, but my desire to do that is a lot less than it was, in part because of all this market manipulation.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
That video was very amusing! Watching the ANA president, Lipton and Hendrickson talking about the coins was very similar IMO to watching Illinois politicians give speeches. Makes you wonder how they can even talk with a straight face.
I've always considered the ANA, the US Mints yearly collector coin issues, and the PNG all basically a joke and a detriment / embarrassment to the hobby, and now my opinion of all three has just lowered slightly. And the 'top tier' grading services playing along as enablers to this nonsense is also deplorable IMO. >>
In fairness to those interviewed in that video, it appears they were interviewed on Day One of the sales where the mood was a bit different. I know that Walt would very likely have had some different words to share if interviewed on Day 3-5 of the show.
<< <i>Then you have those here who slammed the Mint for a measly couple $hundred markup over spot. Seems like they sold em way too cheap. >>
It might seem like that now, but wait a couple of years after all the guys who REALLY want them have theirs.
I've seen prices modern coins go up like rocket and then fall to earth so many times, it's hard to remember all of them over a 50+ year period.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Walt said "They've come here because of a special release". He then said "releasing 500 hundred each, a total of 2500....""
If I didn't know better, I would believe that this was a "special" coin where only 2500 would be "released".
BTW, the last 4 minutes of the video represents the "Hype Machine" at full throttle!
But, it is what it is and the REAL success of the coin is that SilverTowne and a well respected member of the PCGS Board of Experts made a ton of money. You can't argue with that now can ya?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
That video was very amusing! Watching the ANA president, Lipton and Hendrickson talking about the coins was very similar IMO to watching Illinois politicians give speeches. Makes you wonder how they can even talk with a straight face.
I've always considered the ANA, the US Mints yearly collector coin issues, and the PNG all basically a joke and a detriment / embarrassment to the hobby, and now my opinion of all three has just lowered slightly. And the 'top tier' grading services playing along as enablers to this nonsense is also deplorable IMO. >>
<< <i>Just got back from summer vacation and was given the whole story in abbreviated form by Rich Uhrich and now understand what all the hoopla was ( I now fully agree with Bill Jones). I originally thought that Kevin Lipton was just getting the public to be made aware of the gold kennedys, but now learning that he bought the so-called first ANA example for $6k and turned around and sold it for $100k to his long time client is pretty shocking. Why would any TPG put first ana example on a holder, how is that justified or significant in any way. That label doesn't help the hobby either imho. I admittedly know ziltch about moderns and consider this pure bullion and scratch my head at the stupidity of collectors especially well healed ones dropping $100k on such an animal. I guess you can't help stupid. >>
To quote Judge Judy "Beauty fades, stupid is forever"
<< <i>Buyers remorse is a terrible thing. I do think certain dealers fed this monster. Maybe PNG should step in. >>
Try not to forget the cookie that the US Mint out on the table at the HOF Baltimore Coin Show. Specifically:
Validating and recognizing the "First Coin Sold". After all,m if the US Mint is going to do this, why not recognize it? >>
When it was a forum member who put his family in the line to make a couple thousand, he was applauded. But when a dealer puts a dozens of of paid poor people in line, they are skum? At least the dealers are executing their stated mission and hired people. How is using your family to circumvent the order limits and make a buck more classy? Just because somebody puts their kid in the front of the line and let's them keep one all of a sudden it's a cute story? The board's lack if consistency is troubling.
Is the board mad at people pimping the mint, the system or being squeezed out of the take? I personally think all the people who drool/brag over mint flips are pathetic opportunists devoid of class. IMO similar and no better then ticket scalpers.
Unlike ticket scalpers who are encouraged by events as they push sell outs, I see no motivation for the mint to feed the trolls, limit one coin per credit card number and create a order window and only ship them when the ordering and minting are complete and do not take returns. Mail them all out in one week case closed.
Comments
<< <i>Come to think about it. The Mint should make a statement. The Mint was the one that has been under minded...Their attorney's may have something to say. >>
FLipton was quoted in the video as saying the coins were worth a lot of money. Wonder why the mint sold em so cheap then.
Picture this; everything the same except no more than 5 line standers per dealer. It still would have been quite an experience but no where near the chaos the went down.
Would the high bounties paid for the coins have happened? Would the $100,000 sale taken place? Would 2 or 3 dealers be in control of the majority of the coins? Would the mint have suspended sales early?
The fact is, profit can only come from one place: the CUSTOMER.
Lots of entities acted in an untoward manner in all of this. However, if one set of dealers wouldn't have tried to cash in, others would have seen the potential for profit and taken their place. If PCGS wouldn't have created ANA-show labels, NGC would have had the market cornered. It's hard to blame the grading services for creating a product that the CUSTOMER is willing to pay for.
None of it would have been possible without the CUSTOMER paying money for these labels. Without the CUSTOMER paying extra for a label, the dealers would just be sitting on a big steaming pile of overpriced, ANA-labeled gold bullion that they paid too much for.
The behavior of the US Mint, the ANA, the grading services, and the dealers, while problematic, is just a symptom of the problem. The underlying problem is the CUSTOMER who is willing to pay extra for a label. As long as that CUSTOMER exists, entities will try to cash in.
<< <i>Lots of blame being cast around, but very little towards the actual source of the problem.
The fact is, profit can only come from one place: the CUSTOMER.
Lots of entities acted in an untoward manner in all of this. However, if one set of dealers wouldn't have tried to cash in, others would have seen the potential for profit and taken their place. If PCGS wouldn't have created ANA-show labels, NGC would have had the market cornered. It's hard to blame the grading services for creating a product that the CUSTOMER is willing to pay for.
None of it would have been possible without the CUSTOMER paying money for these labels. Without the CUSTOMER paying extra for a label, the dealers would just be sitting on a big steaming pile of overpriced, ANA-labeled gold bullion that they paid too much for.
The behavior of the US Mint, the ANA, the grading services, and the dealers, while problematic, is just a symptom of the problem. The underlying problem is the CUSTOMER who is willing to pay extra for a label. As long as that CUSTOMER exists, entities will try to cash in. >>
Sounds like blaming the victim for walking outside at night and getting robbed.. ...
Some reason some here want to divert attention from the Mint and ANA for their fiasco of their own making...more spinning then in a wash machine
.Thank God from many dealers here , there is a customer willing to buy
"Professional" meaning someone who "knows" how to make money (a killing) in the retail coin industry.
I know how to make money. Buy Low Sell High! Its a simple concept.
However, I do not have a crowd of customers that "trusts" me when I say that the first Kennedy Gold Coin Sold is going to be worth a freaking fortune someday and $100,000 is an absolute steal! (Provided that the coin actually sold for that amount since the two dealers involved are already guilty of "creating a false market" or a "false sense of the market" by hiring actors to play the parts of enthusiastic coin collectors.)
As a side note, I would personally have a problem selling one of the Kennedy "labels" for $5,000 while telling or convincing my "customer" that it is a reasonable price for a coin (label) which is sure to climb in value over the years.
I applaud Rich Uhrich for his honesty and integrity and if I were really a Professional Numismatist..........I would distance myself from the PNG who, at this point in time, have as much credibility as the ANA Board of Directors.
Sorry if you feel otherwise.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>thanks Rich for speaking your mind! >>
Yes indeed thanks for speaking out rich ,one of a few .
For those that just smirk about the gold kennedys being an isolated issue.. my dealer friend made a lot of money from the gold Kennedys at the Show... so with his big profits from the gold kennedys , he was less inclined to bargain for a selling price lower on the coins he bought with him to the show ,and ,lowered his buy prices on coins offered to him
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>One Coin Program that aired, said they did sell the coin for $100K. One night last week they had it on the show, or were suppose to have it on the air according to the announcer.
I did not view it. >>
Maybe the dealer asked a lot less than $100k and the buyer said "no, it has to be $100k...it needs to the most expensive gold Kennedy ever sold".
Lance.
<< <i>Don't you know the public or the market dictated the price on those entombed slabs with funny labels. >>
Right!
Why I can envision a fella running up to a coin dealer and shouting "By God! I'll give you $6,000 for that thing!". "$7,000.00!!!!"
I just don't think so.
You see, the Coin Dealers SET THE PRICES. The public, feeling that "Hey, he's a professional so he KNOWS what these are worth", buys the coin/label.
It's not like these go through an auction or anything. Dealers set prices, people buy at those prices.
How many of the actual sales were "Dealer to Dealer?"
As for Coin Vault, HSN and the other TV Hucksters? We already know the intelligence level of the folks that buy their stuff and I'm sure MANY B&M Coin Dealers remind those folks of their idiosy when it comes time to sell. Thank God for Coin Dealers!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Remember, no proof that this $100,000 sale took place. Knowing the dealer's propensity to hype makes the figure hard to believe. The sale probably took place. The sequence of events is not known. And...the buyer, described a a regular customer of the dealers company, has not come forward. Then again I'm not sure how believable his story would be either. >>
I can absolutely believe a sale at $100,000 !
As long as there was an 80% Rebate.
I think you misspelled 95%. ;-)
-KHayse
Heck, I'm a no nothing and I knew what to expect.
So in my opinion, the real problem is whoever authorized the US Mint to sell that coin at the show is the one that needs to be sitting in the seat. And if it was a US Mint employee that OK'd his entity to sell the coin,than he needs to be in the seat.
The "knucklehead" seat.
<< <i>Great video with interview from PNG members about the gold kennedy's
Link
Last 4 minutes are the most important >>
That video was very amusing! Watching the ANA president, Lipton and Hendrickson talking about the coins was very similar IMO to watching Illinois politicians give speeches. Makes you wonder how they can even talk with a straight face.
I've always considered the ANA, the US Mints yearly collector coin issues, and the PNG all basically a joke and a detriment / embarrassment to the hobby, and now my opinion of all three has just lowered slightly. And the 'top tier' grading services playing along as enablers to this nonsense is also deplorable IMO.
But I'll tell you. All of this foolishness is really turning me off to the modern series. I used keep up my complete set of modern commemorative coins, but my desire to do that is a lot less than it was, in part because of all this market manipulation.
<< <i>
<< <i>Great video with interview from PNG members about the gold kennedy's
Link
Last 4 minutes are the most important >>
That video was very amusing! Watching the ANA president, Lipton and Hendrickson talking about the coins was very similar IMO to watching Illinois politicians give speeches. Makes you wonder how they can even talk with a straight face.
I've always considered the ANA, the US Mints yearly collector coin issues, and the PNG all basically a joke and a detriment / embarrassment to the hobby, and now my opinion of all three has just lowered slightly. And the 'top tier' grading services playing along as enablers to this nonsense is also deplorable IMO. >>
In fairness to those interviewed in that video, it appears they were interviewed on Day One of the sales where the mood was a bit different. I know that Walt would very likely have had some different words to share if interviewed on Day 3-5 of the show.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
<< <i>Then you have those here who slammed the Mint for a measly couple $hundred markup over spot. Seems like they sold em way too cheap. >>
It might seem like that now, but wait a couple of years after all the guys who REALLY want them have theirs.
I've seen prices modern coins go up like rocket and then fall to earth so many times, it's hard to remember all of them over a 50+ year period.
<< <i>
<< <i>Then you have those here who slammed the Mint for a measly couple $hundred markup over spot. Seems like they sold em way too cheap. >>
It might seem like that now, but wait a couple of years after all the guys who REALLY want them have theirs.
I've seen prices modern coins go up like rocket and then fall to earth so many times, it's hard to remember all of them over a 50+ year period. >>
I meant that the mint sold them way too cheap.
Walt said "They've come here because of a special release". He then said "releasing 500 hundred each, a total of 2500....""
If I didn't know better, I would believe that this was a "special" coin where only 2500 would be "released".
BTW, the last 4 minutes of the video represents the "Hype Machine" at full throttle!
But, it is what it is and the REAL success of the coin is that SilverTowne and a well respected member of the PCGS Board of Experts made a ton of money. You can't argue with that now can ya?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Great video with interview from PNG members about the gold kennedy's
Link
Last 4 minutes are the most important >>
That video was very amusing! Watching the ANA president, Lipton and Hendrickson talking about the coins was very similar IMO to watching Illinois politicians give speeches. Makes you wonder how they can even talk with a straight face.
I've always considered the ANA, the US Mints yearly collector coin issues, and the PNG all basically a joke and a detriment / embarrassment to the hobby, and now my opinion of all three has just lowered slightly. And the 'top tier' grading services playing along as enablers to this nonsense is also deplorable IMO. >>
Maybe PNG should step in.
Sugar magnolia blossoms blooming, heads all empty and I don't care ...
<< <i>Buyers remorse is a terrible thing. I do think certain dealers fed this monster.
Maybe PNG should step in. >>
Try not to forget the cookie that the US Mint out on the table at the HOF Baltimore Coin Show. Specifically:
Validating and recognizing the "First Coin Sold". After all,m if the US Mint is going to do this, why not recognize it?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Just got back from summer vacation and was given the whole story in abbreviated form by Rich Uhrich and now understand what all the hoopla was ( I now fully agree with Bill Jones). I originally thought that Kevin Lipton was just getting the public to be made aware of the gold kennedys, but now learning that he bought the so-called first ANA example for $6k and turned around and sold it for $100k to his long time client is pretty shocking. Why would any TPG put first ana example on a holder, how is that justified or significant in any way. That label doesn't help the hobby either imho. I admittedly know ziltch about moderns and consider this pure bullion and scratch my head at the stupidity of collectors especially well healed ones dropping $100k on such an animal. I guess you can't help stupid. >>
To quote Judge Judy "Beauty fades, stupid is forever"
<< <i>
<< <i>Buyers remorse is a terrible thing. I do think certain dealers fed this monster.
Maybe PNG should step in. >>
Try not to forget the cookie that the US Mint out on the table at the HOF Baltimore Coin Show. Specifically:
Validating and recognizing the "First Coin Sold". After all,m if the US Mint is going to do this, why not recognize it? >>
When it was a forum member who put his family in the line to make a couple thousand, he was applauded. But when a dealer puts a dozens of of paid poor people in line, they are skum? At least the dealers are executing their stated mission and hired people. How is using your family to circumvent the order limits and make a buck more classy? Just because somebody puts their kid in the front of the line and let's them keep one all of a sudden it's a cute story? The board's lack if consistency is troubling.
Is the board mad at people pimping the mint, the system or being squeezed out of the take? I personally think all the people who drool/brag over mint flips are pathetic opportunists devoid of class. IMO similar and no better then ticket scalpers.
Unlike ticket scalpers who are encouraged by events as they push sell outs, I see no motivation for the mint to feed the trolls, limit one coin per credit card number and create a order window and only ship them when the ordering and minting are complete and do not take returns. Mail them all out in one week case closed.
I agree with your points about the mint.