Also interesting that the 2014 ANA Dealer of the Year was also one of the biggest buyers of the gold Kennedy Halves at the Chicago ANA with dozens of employees roaming the show with their neon green shirts trying to buy the coins as well as having several employees continuously manning their large groups of paid line standees outside. They had to have over 100 in line on day one.
Reputable TPG services (and we all know some are not up to the same standards as others) are a good thing in many cases, providing a level of standard and security previously not available in numismatics - especially to less knowledgeable collectors or investors.
Having said that, they are also responsible for making "rarities" out of something which is not rare. The "first sold" labels for the Kennedy gold is a perfect example.
Obviously as the number of non-modern coins being slabbed dropped, the TPGs needed a new arena to keep their business up -- modern commemoratives. I totally understand why they did it. I just don't think - in MY opinion - it has added much to the hobby.
I agree. I don't mind the TPGs grading moderns. I do, however, have a problem with special labels, because I have a firm belief that the premiums paid for special labels will vanish over time, and because I also believe that newbies that lose money on their coins are less likely to stick with the hobby. And while I can't fault the TPGs - or any other business - for selling a product valued by the market, I do find it ironic that the companies that purport to be in the business of consumer protection are selling products on which consumers will ultimately get burned.
Of course, I could be wrong about the investment potential of special labels, which would make me wrong about everything I just said. Doesn't change my opinion, though.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I doubt that even 5 people in the town I live in even know any of this happened and out of those 5 only 2 checked into it.
I see this kind of stuff all the time ( camping out in line) and I think they should do away with the use of tents and chairs. Make it more of a sport. The chairs slow it down to much. Recently they camped out in Fort Worth for a spot for their kid to go to a week long day camp, lots of people for a day or 2 for limited spots for a camp a 5 year old will probably not remember. They camped out overnight at a Chik Fil A grand opening for a chance at a free meal for a year. They camped out for season tickets to a high school football team, they camped for.... the list goes on.
I am self employeed but I draw the line on waiting in line. I very rarely wait 30 minutes for dinner at a restraunt and only if they have a chair in the bar.
Some see this as a sport but not me, to each his own.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Obviously as the number of non-modern coins being slabbed dropped, the TPGs needed a new arena to keep their business up -- modern commemoratives
For your information our non-modern coin business has grown very nicely over the past several years. What facts do you base this on? Your statement is completely false and arbitrarily fabricated to support your argument.
Secondly, TPG services did not invent the concept of first issues. There are a lot of 'firsts' in collectibles not just coins. An interesting example in coins is the 1794 SP66 $1. A great deal has been written about it being the 'first' dollar minted.
I would imagine that show organizers everywhere, as well as the US Mint, learned a great deal from the events occurring at the ANA. It would be surprising to see these events repeated. BTW, there is a little company called Apple which has developed a very effective method of dealing with crowds and much longer lines at the release of their new products. Maybe there is something to be learned there.
Wasn't there a time when NGC refused to grade modern coins or am I fabricating this? Hey Don don' t try to infer that you don't have any control over what is going into those holders. So, you're innocent it's the public that demands these products and you have no "duty of care" Your non modern grading has increased? Good. Then you really don't need the modern speculation and MS 70 and Prf 70 designations, baseball player signatures, First Strikes, First etc....These designations and inserts are not good for the "hobby". Regards, Michael Agneta, New Jersey...........................LET'S DANCE !!!
Personally I like that the Mint is releasing new coins at these big shows, creates a buzz for the show o/w its just a bunch old white guys recycling old coins amongst each other. It just needs to be better planned in the future. Not sure how Apple works, always looks like the typical super long line on launch days, so curious how their process works.
<< <i>Wasn't there a time when NGC refused to grade modern coins or am I fabricating this? Hey Don don' t try to infer that you don't have any control over what is going into those holders. So, you're innocent it's the public that demands these products and you have no "duty of care" Your non modern grading has increased? Good. Then you really don't need the modern speculation and MS 70 and Prf 70 designations, baseball player signatures, First Strikes, First etc....These designations and inserts are not good for the "hobby". Regards, Michael Agneta, New Jersey...........................LET'S DANCE !!! >>
in your opinion NGC probably does more Modern grading volume than PCGS at this time, BTW.
<< <i>Wasn't there a time when NGC refused to grade modern coins or am I fabricating this? Hey Don don' t try to infer that you don't have any control over what is going into those holders. So, you're innocent it's the public that demands these products and you have no "duty of care" Your non modern grading has increased? Good. Then you really don't need the modern speculation and MS 70 and Prf 70 designations, baseball player signatures, First Strikes, First etc....These designations and inserts are not good for the "hobby". Regards, Michael Agneta, New Jersey...........................LET'S DANCE !!! >>
Ultimately the marketplace always solves this. It feels like the TPGs are killing the golden goose with the over saturation of labels and the public will eventually just stop buying or caring about them because there are just to many.
Queuing is a scientific study of forming lines. What it's got to do with Apple I have no idea, but I accept the source and roll with it. Now, what does a bunch of "white guys" have to do with this discussion? "Old white guys" ??????????
No it was PCGS that refused to grade Modern coins. We finally agreed to do so after several years of the market demanding it.
We completely control what goes in to our holders. That's why people prefer PCGS coins.
Non-modern (we call it Vintage) is doing just fine. So are many other of our lines of business. PCGS is not one-dimensional.
There are many people who would disagree with your statement that labels (you mention First Strike) are not good for the hobby. In fact attracting new collectors is great for the hobby.
Yes, new collectors who are going to get burnt by those labels. Honestly, this "attraction" Is going to bring new people, temporarily yes, long term.........I think not. When did I say or infer PCGS was one dimensional? We are talking about the "mess" in Chicago at the ANA show. No? and I believe NGC hung in there longer with the No Modern issues.
No it was PCGS that refused to grade Modern coins. We finally agreed to do so after several years of the market demanding it.
We completely control what goes in to our holders. That's why people prefer PCGS coins.
Non-modern (we call it Vintage) is doing just fine. So are many other of our lines of business. PCGS is not one-dimensional.
There are many people who would disagree with your statement that labels (you mention First Strike) are not good for the hobby. In fact attracting new collectors is great for the hobby. >>
Before one tosses a rock at the role players in this event, consider if you were involved in buying more than one specimen (or set) of any of the highly publicized mint issues of the past 5 years or so (UHR's, BHOF sets, 5 oz silver hockey pucks, reverse proofs, etc.). Lots of people trying to make a quick buck. The only difference this time was that rather than by ordering by phone/internet/mail....you could do it in person. Similar outcomes though.
Before one tosses a rock at the role players in this event, consider if you were involved in buying more than one specimen (or set) of any of the highly publicized mint issues of the past 5 years or so (UHR's, BHOF sets, 5 oz silver hockey pucks, reverse proofs, etc.). Lots of people trying to make a quick buck. The only difference this time was that rather than by ordering by phone/internet/mail....you could do it in person. Similar outcomes though. >>
No, that's not the only difference this time, this was a "few" dealers buying up several hundreds of all coins sold by acquiring way too many credentials, employing "hundreds" of people using busses, wagons, casting calls and strollers. "You" didn't have that kinda $ to pull that off...Not the same in my book.
Before one tosses a rock at the role players in this event, consider if you were involved in buying more than one specimen (or set) of any of the highly publicized mint issues of the past 5 years or so (UHR's, BHOF sets, 5 oz silver hockey pucks, reverse proofs, etc.). Lots of people trying to make a quick buck. The only difference this time was that rather than by ordering by phone/internet/mail....you could do it in person. Similar outcomes though. >>
No, that's not the only difference this time, this was a "few" dealers buying up several hundreds of all coins sold by acquiring way too many credentials, employing "hundreds" of people using busses, wagons, casting calls and strollers. "You" didn't have that kinda $ to pull that off...Not the same in my book. >>
I've learned in life that whenever the schemers (not a crime ) have enough time to plan…………….. results like this follow.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Before one tosses a rock at the role players in this event, consider if you were involved in buying more than one specimen (or set) of any of the highly publicized mint issues of the past 5 years or so (UHR's, BHOF sets, 5 oz silver hockey pucks, reverse proofs, etc.). Lots of people trying to make a quick buck. The only difference this time was that rather than by ordering by phone/internet/mail....you could do it in person. Similar outcomes though. >>
No, that's not the only difference this time, this was a "few" dealers buying up several hundreds of all coins sold by acquiring way too many credentials, employing "hundreds" of people using busses, wagons, casting calls and strollers. "You" didn't have that kinda $ to pull that off...Not the same in my book. >>
my dealer friend said at least 4 dealers at the ANA Show, picked up over 100 gold kennedys ....each ....mostly from paid sitters
Before one tosses a rock at the role players in this event, consider if you were involved in buying more than one specimen (or set) of any of the highly publicized mint issues of the past 5 years or so (UHR's, BHOF sets, 5 oz silver hockey pucks, reverse proofs, etc.). Lots of people trying to make a quick buck. The only difference this time was that rather than by ordering by phone/internet/mail....you could do it in person. Similar outcomes though. >>
No, that's not the only difference this time, this was a "few" dealers buying up several hundreds of all coins sold by acquiring way too many credentials, employing "hundreds" of people using busses, wagons, casting calls and strollers. "You" didn't have that kinda $ to pull that off...Not the same in my book. >>
I hope they all lose their arses and those who paid those stupid prices lose their arses too!
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Her marketing ploy cost $10M. Litpon's only cost $100K. Maybe she got out thought.
To classify and denigrate all modern collectors as junk is shameless. To each their own. >>
You mean Kevin Lipton winner of the 2012 PNG Lifetime Achievement Award. Classic!
http://www.coinweek.com/people-in-the-news/kevin-lipton-png-lifetime-achievement-award-recipient-2012-video/ >>
How the mighty have fallen, eh? >>
Also interesting that the 2014 ANA Dealer of the Year was also one of the biggest buyers of the gold Kennedy Halves at the Chicago ANA with dozens of employees roaming the show with their neon green shirts trying to buy the coins as well as having several employees continuously manning their large groups of paid line standees outside. They had to have over 100 in line on day one.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
Having said that, they are also responsible for making "rarities" out of something which is not rare. The "first sold" labels for the Kennedy gold is a perfect example.
Obviously as the number of non-modern coins being slabbed dropped, the TPGs needed a new arena to keep their business up -- modern commemoratives. I totally understand why they did it. I just don't think - in MY opinion - it has added much to the hobby.
I agree. I don't mind the TPGs grading moderns. I do, however, have a problem with special labels, because I have a firm belief that the premiums paid for special labels will vanish over time, and because I also believe that newbies that lose money on their coins are less likely to stick with the hobby. And while I can't fault the TPGs - or any other business - for selling a product valued by the market, I do find it ironic that the companies that purport to be in the business of consumer protection are selling products on which consumers will ultimately get burned.
Of course, I could be wrong about the investment potential of special labels, which would make me wrong about everything I just said. Doesn't change my opinion, though.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I see this kind of stuff all the time ( camping out in line) and I think they should do away with the use of tents and chairs. Make it more of a sport. The chairs slow it down to much. Recently they camped out in Fort Worth for a spot for their kid to go to a week long day camp, lots of people for a day or 2 for limited spots for a camp a 5 year old will probably not remember. They camped out overnight at a Chik Fil A grand opening for a chance at a free meal for a year. They camped out for season tickets to a high school football team, they camped for.... the list goes on.
I am self employeed but I draw the line on waiting in line. I very rarely wait 30 minutes for dinner at a restraunt and only if they have a chair in the bar.
Some see this as a sport but not me, to each his own.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
For your information our non-modern coin business has grown very nicely over the past several years. What facts do you base this on? Your statement is completely false and arbitrarily fabricated to support your argument.
Secondly, TPG services did not invent the concept of first issues. There are a lot of 'firsts' in collectibles not just coins. An interesting example in coins is the 1794 SP66 $1. A great deal has been written about it being the 'first' dollar minted.
I would imagine that show organizers everywhere, as well as the US Mint, learned a great deal from the events occurring at the ANA. It would be surprising to see these events repeated. BTW, there is a little company called Apple which has developed a very effective method of dealing with crowds and much longer lines at the release of their new products. Maybe there is something to be learned there.
Does your angst mean you won't be voting for Greg?
<< <i>Where there any assaults? >>
Two peanuts were walking down the street near the convention center. One of them was a salted!
<< <i>Wasn't there a time when NGC refused to grade modern coins or am I fabricating this? Hey Don don' t try to infer that you don't have any control over what is going into those holders. So, you're innocent it's the public that demands these products and you have no "duty of care" Your non modern grading has increased? Good. Then you really don't need the modern speculation and MS 70 and Prf 70 designations, baseball player signatures, First Strikes, First etc....These designations and inserts are not good for the "hobby". Regards, Michael Agneta, New Jersey...........................LET'S DANCE !!!
in your opinion
NGC probably does more Modern grading volume than PCGS at this time, BTW.
<< <i>Wasn't there a time when NGC refused to grade modern coins or am I fabricating this? Hey Don don' t try to infer that you don't have any control over what is going into those holders. So, you're innocent it's the public that demands these products and you have no "duty of care" Your non modern grading has increased? Good. Then you really don't need the modern speculation and MS 70 and Prf 70 designations, baseball player signatures, First Strikes, First etc....These designations and inserts are not good for the "hobby". Regards, Michael Agneta, New Jersey...........................LET'S DANCE !!!
Ultimately the marketplace always solves this. It feels like the TPGs are killing the golden goose with the over saturation of labels and the public will eventually just stop buying or caring about them because there are just to many.
No it was PCGS that refused to grade Modern coins. We finally agreed to do so after several years of the market demanding it.
We completely control what goes in to our holders. That's why people prefer PCGS coins.
Non-modern (we call it Vintage) is doing just fine. So are many other of our lines of business. PCGS is not one-dimensional.
There are many people who would disagree with your statement that labels (you mention First Strike) are not good for the hobby. In fact attracting new collectors is great for the hobby.
<< <i>Hey Michael from New Jersey -
No it was PCGS that refused to grade Modern coins. We finally agreed to do so after several years of the market demanding it.
We completely control what goes in to our holders. That's why people prefer PCGS coins.
Non-modern (we call it Vintage) is doing just fine. So are many other of our lines of business. PCGS is not one-dimensional.
There are many people who would disagree with your statement that labels (you mention First Strike) are not good for the hobby. In fact attracting new collectors is great for the hobby. >>
Huh.
Before one tosses a rock at the role players in this event, consider if you were involved in buying more than one specimen (or set) of any of the highly publicized mint issues of the past 5 years or so (UHR's, BHOF sets, 5 oz silver hockey pucks, reverse proofs, etc.). Lots of people trying to make a quick buck. The only difference this time was that rather than by ordering by phone/internet/mail....you could do it in person. Similar outcomes though.
<< <i>7 pages of posts???
Before one tosses a rock at the role players in this event, consider if you were involved in buying more than one specimen (or set) of any of the highly publicized mint issues of the past 5 years or so (UHR's, BHOF sets, 5 oz silver hockey pucks, reverse proofs, etc.). Lots of people trying to make a quick buck. The only difference this time was that rather than by ordering by phone/internet/mail....you could do it in person. Similar outcomes though. >>
No, that's not the only difference this time, this was a "few" dealers buying up several hundreds of all coins sold by acquiring way too many credentials, employing "hundreds" of people using busses, wagons, casting calls and strollers. "You" didn't have that kinda $ to pull that off...Not the same in my book.
<< <i>
<< <i>7 pages of posts???
Before one tosses a rock at the role players in this event, consider if you were involved in buying more than one specimen (or set) of any of the highly publicized mint issues of the past 5 years or so (UHR's, BHOF sets, 5 oz silver hockey pucks, reverse proofs, etc.). Lots of people trying to make a quick buck. The only difference this time was that rather than by ordering by phone/internet/mail....you could do it in person. Similar outcomes though. >>
No, that's not the only difference this time, this was a "few" dealers buying up several hundreds of all coins sold by acquiring way too many credentials, employing "hundreds" of people using busses, wagons, casting calls and strollers. "You" didn't have that kinda $ to pull that off...Not the same in my book. >>
I've learned in life that whenever the schemers (not a crime ) have enough time to plan…………….. results like this follow.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>7 pages of posts???
Before one tosses a rock at the role players in this event, consider if you were involved in buying more than one specimen (or set) of any of the highly publicized mint issues of the past 5 years or so (UHR's, BHOF sets, 5 oz silver hockey pucks, reverse proofs, etc.). Lots of people trying to make a quick buck. The only difference this time was that rather than by ordering by phone/internet/mail....you could do it in person. Similar outcomes though. >>
No, that's not the only difference this time, this was a "few" dealers buying up several hundreds of all coins sold by acquiring way too many credentials, employing "hundreds" of people using busses, wagons, casting calls and strollers. "You" didn't have that kinda $ to pull that off...Not the same in my book. >>
my dealer friend said at least 4 dealers at the ANA Show, picked up over 100 gold kennedys ....each ....mostly from paid sitters
<< <i>I have nothing constructive to add. Just wanted to be part of this epic 500 post thread.
Huh.
<< <i>
<< <i>7 pages of posts???
Before one tosses a rock at the role players in this event, consider if you were involved in buying more than one specimen (or set) of any of the highly publicized mint issues of the past 5 years or so (UHR's, BHOF sets, 5 oz silver hockey pucks, reverse proofs, etc.). Lots of people trying to make a quick buck. The only difference this time was that rather than by ordering by phone/internet/mail....you could do it in person. Similar outcomes though. >>
No, that's not the only difference this time, this was a "few" dealers buying up several hundreds of all coins sold by acquiring way too many credentials, employing "hundreds" of people using busses, wagons, casting calls and strollers. "You" didn't have that kinda $ to pull that off...Not the same in my book. >>
I hope they all lose their arses and those who paid those stupid prices lose their arses too!